Scott L
Contributor
Forget about the cost. There is zero chance I would commit more than 3 consecutive days with any scuba class again. It would have to be split-up. ADD salesperson here...
Cost of GUE/DIR training
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OP
LiteHedded
Contributor
don't forget the tax write offs for gear
Forget about the cost. There is zero chance I would commit more than 3 consecutive days with any scuba class again. It would have to be split-up. ADD salesperson here...
my fundamentals class was split over two weekends. glad i did it that way
ligersandtions
Contributor
$600 (more if you include all the additional costs, like stargost mentioned) is a lot of money for someone to shell out if they're trying to decide if this is what they want to do. It was worth it for me, but someone who's curious about the whole system may not be able to be convinced of that.
But that's the beauty of GUE Primer....for about half the cost, you get a similar class and a great foundation on which to build. Plus, the few people I know who've taken the Primer class have been so fired out about diving this way that they're signing up for Fundies classes. Good for the student, good for the instructor, good for the community.
I don't blame the ZG guys for charging high fees for Fundies. Why teach a 4 or 5 day Fundies class for $600, when you can teach a 5 day Cave 1 instead for $1800? They don't seem to have any trouble filling their classes, or teaching as many of them as they want, which is really a measure of what the consumer thinks of the price to value ratio
I wonder how these same ZG guys are charging for a Cave 1 class in France in January ...
Should it be 1800 euros instead of $$ ? Damn exchange rate.
Should they compensate for their trip from Mexico to France and double the fees ?
Should one of them discount as he's going back to home country ?
Should they discount because the weather at that time of the year will be tough to attract many students divers (a part from UK) ?
Should they discount because France may not be the most GUE/DIR friendly country ?
Should they increase because France may not be the most GUE/DIR friendly country ?
Just wonder, just kidding, and maybe I should find out
ScubaFeenD
Contributor
lamont
Contributor
If you're complaining about GUE courses being too high you are literally missing an important and explicitly stated point of why JJ started GUE.
Read _Fundamentals of Better Diving_ again. I believe this is covered in the first couple of pages.
Read _Fundamentals of Better Diving_ again. I believe this is covered in the first couple of pages.
Spg01
Contributor
In Chapter 2, on page 9, Jarrod has an section about why it is so hard to find a good diving educator. His thesis is that "most dive courses are pitifully inexpensive, leaving little incentive for qualified educators to offer them."
He also states: "Even divers for whom cost is nearly irrelevant are left paying substandard wages to often less-than-qualified instructors. Actually, even individuals on the tightest of budgets could afford the additional costs that would attract a qualified educator. In other words, if one can afford to dive, then one can't afford not to learn properly."
I'm not sure I agree that people on the tightest budgets can afford the additional costs. I can no longer afford the upper level GUE classes, and I'm far from being on the "tightest of budgets".
A final paragraph:
I completely agree that diving education has become so inexpensive that one can't expect to do more than recoup one's expenses from providing it. My husband is an OW instructor, so I know this. I think better instructors who put more time and effort into classes should be better compensated. And more power to people who can fill classes while charging enough to make a good living! But it does create a barrier to folks who would LIKE better training, but simply don't have the means to take classes, or in particular, take them more than once
He also states: "Even divers for whom cost is nearly irrelevant are left paying substandard wages to often less-than-qualified instructors. Actually, even individuals on the tightest of budgets could afford the additional costs that would attract a qualified educator. In other words, if one can afford to dive, then one can't afford not to learn properly."
I'm not sure I agree that people on the tightest budgets can afford the additional costs. I can no longer afford the upper level GUE classes, and I'm far from being on the "tightest of budgets".
A final paragraph:
I completely agree that diving education has become so inexpensive that one can't expect to do more than recoup one's expenses from providing it. My husband is an OW instructor, so I know this. I think better instructors who put more time and effort into classes should be better compensated. And more power to people who can fill classes while charging enough to make a good living! But it does create a barrier to folks who would LIKE better training, but simply don't have the means to take classes, or in particular, take them more than once
Spg01
Contributor
Thank you for the explanation.
ucfdiver
Contributor
I kind of agree. I see people around cave country who are charging $300 per person for a NAUI Cave 1 course and letting their wife teach it, and they sign off on the card because they're also teaching a cavern course that day. Then again, I see a few of the more expensive NAUI/NACD instructors completely burned out and teaching because it's such great money they can't afford to stop.
I wish there were a better way of getting more energetic people into cave diving, for two reasons....
#1- I know of several exciting dives that I just can't get setup without help due to work schedule. I'm willing to alternate setup weekends (IE team A sets team B up weekend 1, then flip flip) Manatee Springs is an absolutely massive cave that goes and goes and goes...all shallow. I know of maybe 3 other divers interested in attempting a push there who would be willing to do setup dives for each other on alternating weekends. Another site, state owned, scooterable to nearly 4k, less than 150ft, and EOL unexplored is sitting there with nothing being done because no one has the time to donate a week to it, nor the team to set it up over a weekend. Then there's one which is state owned, EOL less than 7 or 8k, and scooterable (with a permit) for most of it, and no major exploration going on there, either. Massive exploration could be done by having a group camp out, setup Friday night, push Saturday, cleanup Sunday.
#2- Next, there's a major lack of new divers coming into the sport who stick with it. We're getting lots of vacation divers who come twice a year, but cavern/intro buddies are few and far between for an up and coming diver. NFL has an average income of under $35k for most areas that I've looked up, and that means that lots of individuals who are interested can't swing the cost. I spoke with a cavern diver this weekend who I was doing a few drills with and he told me that a primary reason to take intro was so he could find more buddies, as he couldn't find any at the cavern level...he's posted online and asks around often, that's not a good thing for the sport.
I'm aware of one instructor who essentially donates his time to anyone who's in school and wants to take a cave class. Out of the students of his I know, all but one of them actively cave dive almost every other weekend, and many participate in community events, site cleanups, relining caves, landowner negotiations, etc. Lamar Hires (who marketed the first commercial bp/w) refused to even pay $4 for Sheck's book when he started cave diving, and Wes Skiles donated it, then later gave him a free class.
I said all that to say this...there is a need for quality, affordable training. Some agency (GUE or otherwise) would thrill me if they would focus on enforcing standards for courses, while providing a more reasonable path to become an instructor. Enforce tightly written standards and the quality would improve a ton, at least from the poor instruction I've seen (this is GUE's strongest point IMO), set MAP for the classes (this gets rid of price shopping students), and actively seek qualified individuals to teach. $5600+expenses isn't affordable training to get from OW to cave 2. The NAUI $300 course isn't quality. There has to be a middle ground. A $1000-1200 cave course is completely affordable and would provide adequate income for an enthusiast diver to train new divers, yet maybe not make a living teaching...and I'm 100% OK with that, we already have enough burned out instructors.
I wish there were a better way of getting more energetic people into cave diving, for two reasons....
#1- I know of several exciting dives that I just can't get setup without help due to work schedule. I'm willing to alternate setup weekends (IE team A sets team B up weekend 1, then flip flip) Manatee Springs is an absolutely massive cave that goes and goes and goes...all shallow. I know of maybe 3 other divers interested in attempting a push there who would be willing to do setup dives for each other on alternating weekends. Another site, state owned, scooterable to nearly 4k, less than 150ft, and EOL unexplored is sitting there with nothing being done because no one has the time to donate a week to it, nor the team to set it up over a weekend. Then there's one which is state owned, EOL less than 7 or 8k, and scooterable (with a permit) for most of it, and no major exploration going on there, either. Massive exploration could be done by having a group camp out, setup Friday night, push Saturday, cleanup Sunday.
#2- Next, there's a major lack of new divers coming into the sport who stick with it. We're getting lots of vacation divers who come twice a year, but cavern/intro buddies are few and far between for an up and coming diver. NFL has an average income of under $35k for most areas that I've looked up, and that means that lots of individuals who are interested can't swing the cost. I spoke with a cavern diver this weekend who I was doing a few drills with and he told me that a primary reason to take intro was so he could find more buddies, as he couldn't find any at the cavern level...he's posted online and asks around often, that's not a good thing for the sport.
I'm aware of one instructor who essentially donates his time to anyone who's in school and wants to take a cave class. Out of the students of his I know, all but one of them actively cave dive almost every other weekend, and many participate in community events, site cleanups, relining caves, landowner negotiations, etc. Lamar Hires (who marketed the first commercial bp/w) refused to even pay $4 for Sheck's book when he started cave diving, and Wes Skiles donated it, then later gave him a free class.
I said all that to say this...there is a need for quality, affordable training. Some agency (GUE or otherwise) would thrill me if they would focus on enforcing standards for courses, while providing a more reasonable path to become an instructor. Enforce tightly written standards and the quality would improve a ton, at least from the poor instruction I've seen (this is GUE's strongest point IMO), set MAP for the classes (this gets rid of price shopping students), and actively seek qualified individuals to teach. $5600+expenses isn't affordable training to get from OW to cave 2. The NAUI $300 course isn't quality. There has to be a middle ground. A $1000-1200 cave course is completely affordable and would provide adequate income for an enthusiast diver to train new divers, yet maybe not make a living teaching...and I'm 100% OK with that, we already have enough burned out instructors.
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