Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[tedtim]

... in my vision of Hell, the Brits are the cooks ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

And that is why they have a Brit choosing the next great american chef on Hell's Kitchen. What a sense of humour.

 

[Thalassamania]

How does it go? In heaven the police officers are British, the chefs are French and the auto mechanics are German; but in hell the police officers are German, the chefs are British and the auto mechanics are French.

 

[oly5050user]

Quote: To do a full navigation speciality(3 hrs academic presentation 2 dives)..full deep speciality..(3 hrs presentation and 2 dives)..full boat speciality(with boat fees) a full day 2 dives maybe 1 hr presentation)..night dive speciality (2 hr presentation 2 night dives) search recovery speciality (2 hrs presentation 2 dives)..so we are looking at 11-12 hrs of classroom time and 5 days of diving which lets conservatively say is about 20 hrs...total of 32 hours..How much are you willing to pay??Remember this does not include any boat fees which can run $75.-$100. per day..End Quote

Here in a nutshell lies my point:
Nav Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement I already did one dive dedicated to Nav so I have little or no classwork and 1 additional dive to do for the "specialty".

---yes there is 1 other dive but alot more to it is done in classroom..the problem here is you do not know how much more is involved--

Boat Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and had two dives from a boat ( I know of nobody that goes out on a boat for AOW and only does 1 dive) so from what I can see no additional time is required for this "specialty".

--agree that "boat speciality" is a liitle redundant but some people want the extra attention that can go with it and dive under supervision until their confidence level increases..and again there is academic presentations that go over information that you do not or may not know about..what are 3 verticle white lights mean on a vessel?What is red over white over red mean?what is red over red?--by the way ALL of my training dives are done on a boat..

Nite Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and had 1 dive. So I have little or no classwork and 1 additional dive to do for this "specialty".

--again you do not know what is in the academic presentations or what is on the 2nd dive,a little knowledge does not make you an expert..

Underwater Naturalist: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and have 1 Dive. So I have little or no classwork and no additional requirements for this "specialty".

--more classroom work,what habitats do your favorite invertebrites live in??

The presentation time you speak of is I assume the video plus question and answer which by PADI standards does not need to be done in the classroom (for the specialties I listed).

--video??who only would use a video?--there are objectives that are mmet in the presentations,again you know not what you speak of..--

Your total additional investment is two additional shore dives and no equipment cost. For your additional investment you charge on average $500 plus cert fees. I mean come on! Book work or DVD as the case may be is the same for both the AOW as it is for the specialty. How can you even pretend that this is in the interests of the student?

---as I outlined there is a considerable amount of time involved to do a speciality correctly..By your reasoning if I know how to cut open a animal in a high school biology class I should be able to do open heart surgery..
I do not know who your instructor is but maybe the problem here is the experience you had with him/her..maybe they did not do their job to the degree that they imparted information to you and explain that the dives for advance are not the end all of that particular speciality..There has to be an difference in cost from a simple advance course that may take 1 hr briefing at the facility and then 5 dives with a briefing/debreifing than a bunch of speciality courses that can take 10-12 hrs classroom and 12-15 dives..if you want more you pay more ..the advance course is a "taste" to experience some of the different skill sets and see which may turn you on to seek more.

 

[fisherdvm]

---as I outlined there is a considerable amount of time involved to do a speciality correctly..By your reasoning if I know how to cut open a animal in a high school biology class I should be able to do open heart surgery..

Well said. That is the reason why as a veterinarian, you can be a surgeon after vet school. But as a human doctor, they make you do 5 to 7 years of residency after your MD before you can cut on your own.

When your life or someone elses life is at risk, a few hundred buck for formal instruction is cheap. Even if String argues that a "boat dive specialty" is only for morons (us americans) ... If it saves 1 life out of 1000 ... It is well worth it.

I remembered before having done any boat dives, other diver tried to talk my wife into diving. They said "any one can do a boat dive - no physical effort is needed".... After having done several dives in heavy waves, I can tell you that it is dangerous for a woman or someone with weak upperbody.

Point blank arrogant statements from a dive instructor means that he/she is inexperience and should not be teaching.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well said. That is the reason why as a veterinarian, you can be a surgeon after vet school. But as a human doctor, they make you do 5 to 7 years of residency after your MD before you can cut on your own.

When your life or someone elses life is at risk, a few hundred buck for formal instruction is cheap. Even if String argues that a "boat dive specialty" is only for morons (us americans) ... If it saves 1 life out of 1000 ... It is well worth it.

I remembered before having done any boat dives, other diver tried to talk my wife into diving. They said "any one can do a boat dive - no physical effort is needed".... After having done several dives in heavy waves, I can tell you that it is dangerous for a woman or someone with weak upperbody.

Point blank arrogant statements from a dive instructor means that he/she is inexperience and should not be teaching.

What specifically do you find in the "boat diving" specialty course standards that will prepare a diver for getting on and off a boat in rough seas?

You really think the boat diver specialty can be credited with saving lives?

 

[fisherdvm]

What specifically do you find in the "boat diving" specialty course standards that will prepare a diver for getting on and off a boat in rough seas?

You really think the boat diver specialty can be credited with saving lives?

Never took one. But a good instructor should prepare a newby on the different techniques of entry, the danger of rough sea, the danger of getting hit by a ladder, etiquette in entry and reentry, poor visibility and danger of surface traffic, the need for staying with the "group" as a boat captain can miss the bobbing black head, while keeping an eye on the large bubble mass, the need for back up lighting for night dives (keep the darn boat from hitting you in emergency situation)....

I can go on and on..... And a person can say the same for shore dives.... The bottom line is - as we trim OW requirement to a bare minimum... any amount of face to face, hands on instruction is better than none.

p.s. my wife is due for both hip replacement this summer, glad I didn't listen to any dive instructor's recommendation for her to dive.

 

[fisherdvm]

Case in point, remember the dive instructor who took his wife on her first OW dive in the keys (jan 07)... Rough wave, anxiety, new diver .... Equals accidental death...

Not to say a boat dive specialty course could have saved her, but might have made another instructor learly about rough weather boat diving.

Mandatory equipment (IMHO) for boat dives should be a whistle or surface sound signal device, a brightly colored wetsuit or cap, a tube signal device, a back up dive light (if night dive)....

Can you imagine how many boat accident between diver and boat could have been prevented.... especially when many of them are caused by the diver's own dive boat??



This is not a diver specific problem, it is an industry problem...

 

[fisherdvm]

As the machismo in dive instructor start to show, more newbies are going to imitate them by foregoing the snorkel...

Poor swimmer, anxiety, out of air, big waves - equal accident waiting to happen. I remember two mexican DM telling me, "no one are wearing snorkels anymore, and in big waves, you're going to lose it anyway"....

I think we have to rethink the challenges to keep inexperience divers from getting killed... DM and instructors should be the role model...

I would not object to setting standards on boat dive (hunter's orange cap, he, he, he... neon pink dive tanks)..

Better, we should make it mandatory for all DM to wear neon pink.... So their flock of sheep know how to find them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Never took one. But a good instructor should prepare a newby on the different techniques of entry, the danger of rough sea, the danger of getting hit by a ladder, etiquette in entry and reentry, poor visibility and danger of surface traffic, the need for staying with the "group" as a boat captain can miss the bobbing black head, while keeping an eye on the large bubble mass, the need for back up lighting for night dives (keep the darn boat from hitting you in emergency situation)....

I can go on and on..... And a person can say the same for shore dives.... The bottom line is - as we trim OW requirement to a bare minimum... any amount of face to face, hands on instruction is better than none.

p.s. my wife is due for both hip replacement this summer, glad I didn't listen to any dive instructor's recommendation for her to dive.

Just glanced through the standards and the only mention I see of anything related to rough water is a note about decents on a line reminding divers to be cautious of jerking motions caused by boat movement. The course requires two dives from any kind of boat and really just covers very basic "boat diving procedures" and terminology.

What a good instructor will teach.... First lets define "good instructor". PADI requires specialty instructors to use the PADI outline unless they author, or otherwise get approved to teach" a distinctive specialty. A distinctive specialty is, of course still subject to PADI approval but then you are obligated to follow that outline.

A "good instructor" will do as they have agreed and use the specified outline. They are not under any obligation to add ANYTHING that isn't in the outline.

For instance, if this course were taught from a small inflatable (which is permitted) the student would get on an off one of those for each of their two dives possibly without ever even seeing a ladder, let alone the different types of ladders.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Case in point, remember the dive instructor who took his wife on her first OW dive in the keys (jan 07)... Rough wave, anxiety, new diver .... Equals accidental death...

Last I heard they still hadn't anounced a cause of death so I don't even know if it had anything to do with the dive.

Not to say a boat dive specialty course could have saved her, but might have made another instructor learly about rough weather boat diving.

She wasn't even certified yet so there is no way that she could have yet taken a boat diving specialty.

Mandatory equipment (IMHO) for boat dives should be a whistle or surface sound signal device, a brightly colored wetsuit or cap, a tube signal device, a back up dive light (if night dive)....

you can say whatever you want about what equipment you think should be required but the agency defines what equipment IS required.

Can you imagine how many boat accident between diver and boat could have been prevented.... especially when many of them are caused by the diver's own dive boat??

Well the agency isn't even concerned with doing anything about all the accidents that involve buoyancy control problems so why would you expect them to worried about this.

As the machismo in dive instructor start to show, more newbies are going to imitate them by foregoing the snorkel...

What do you need a snorkel for?

Poor swimmer, anxiety, out of air, big waves - equal accident waiting to happen. I remember two mexican DM telling me, "no one are wearing snorkels anymore, and in big waves, you're going to lose it anyway"....

Well, you can get certified now without even knowing how to swim.

I think we have to rethink the challenges to keep inexperience divers from getting killed... DM and instructors should be the role model...

I would not object to setting standards on boat dive (hunter's orange cap, he, he, he... neon pink dive tanks)..

Better, we should make it mandatory for all DM to wear neon pink.... So their flock of sheep know how to find them.

Divers should be diving in buddy teams. Not in flocks. Diving classes should teach the difference.