Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[oly5050user]

Oly as I dont know you I obviously had no intention of infering that you or your lds takes your students to the bank. What I am infering is that the system of training is not designed as much to educate as it is to make money off your students. As you subscribe to this ideology by the text of your post I can now infer that you do take your students to the bank. You cannot expect somebody starting a new sport to know in what they need to be trained. You cannot research what classes you might need to take over what other classes are available if you have no idea what you might need at 60 to 80 feet depth much less at 130 feet most people who have never dived dont.


---I take them toi the bank when I give them a free advance course for joining me on a trip??Someone has to start somewhere-ow course --then as their skill/confidence -experience progress gain some experience in other skillls.Pretty much use the same gear at 40' as you do at 100'..in advance we do not go to 130'..beyond standards..

quote
PADI (Im using them ONLY because I was trained by PADI) places boat, nav, night and deep dives in there requirements for AOW. If you charge extra for those items you are indeed taking your students to the bank.

--PADI requires navigation dive and deep for advance as core dives the 3 others are electives that you and the instructor can choose from..Lets say you choose search and recovery, or night,or wreck,all simple and good to experience dives,the costs stay down that way..Lets say you choose uw photo as a dive,the costs go up..I am placing anywhere from a $2,500 to $4,000 camera system in your hands and the fee would have to go up..Its your choice..


QUOTE:
If instruction is needed teach it, if it requires additional dives to complete the instuction, add them. Dont tell me that you require an additional $525 (by the way costs around here are pretty fixed and dont vary by more than $10 either way) for that additional three hours of time (if it is even three hours). Add the additional dives for the other items if they are even required (boat dive comes to mind) and you have a clear case of wanting to just plain get paid period.

PADI does not set the price,the instr/lds does..I don't know what the $525. is for??
QUOTE:
Now in the end if you even add say $200 to AOW it cost $325. but you get Nav Diver fully trained, Deep Diver fully trained, Boat Diver fully trained (lol), Night Diver fully trained and you add what two maybee three dives to the whole class (I mean actual dives required by PADI)? The diver has had better COMPLETE training and you have done your job.

To do a full navigation speciality(3 hrs academic presentation 2 dives)..full deep speciality..(3 hrs presentation and 2 dives)..full boat speciality(with boat fees) a full day 2 dives maybe 1 hr presentation)..night dive speciality (2 hr presentation 2 night dives) search recovery speciality (2 hrs presentation 2 dives)..so we are looking at 11-12 hrs of classroom time and 5 days of diving which lets conservatively say is about 20 hrs...total of 32 hours..How much are you willing to pay??Remember this does not include any boat fees which can run $75.-$100. per day..

Quote;
Please dont give me I give my students complete training, anybody who has dived 10 times can see the importance beyond the introductory brush given them of the above certifications. If you see fit to cover a subject because of its inherant risk to a diver then COVER the subject.

---I give complete training to the level that they are completing,as most of the instructors out there are doing.--diving is an experience thing and it takes time..

QUOTE;
MSilvia my gear is MY GEAR, if it fails its my fault (disregarding manufacturer problems). If it hasnt been cleaned, its my fault, if its damaged its my fault. If you want to be down 60-80 feet or more only to find your bcd inflator sticks etc thats your business. I prefer to use my own gear so yes since my LDS supplies both my gear and my training and has been posted they have some flexibility as to how much both cost it was included in my estimate of cost.

that is good on your part..Every person should be responsible for themselves..

 

[Twiddles]

Quote: To do a full navigation speciality(3 hrs academic presentation 2 dives)..full deep speciality..(3 hrs presentation and 2 dives)..full boat speciality(with boat fees) a full day 2 dives maybe 1 hr presentation)..night dive speciality (2 hr presentation 2 night dives) search recovery speciality (2 hrs presentation 2 dives)..so we are looking at 11-12 hrs of classroom time and 5 days of diving which lets conservatively say is about 20 hrs...total of 32 hours..How much are you willing to pay??Remember this does not include any boat fees which can run $75.-$100. per day..End Quote

Here in a nutshell lies my point:
Nav Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement I already did one dive dedicated to Nav so I have little or no classwork and 1 additional dive to do for the "specialty".
Boat Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and had two dives from a boat ( I know of nobody that goes out on a boat for AOW and only does 1 dive) so from what I can see no additional time is required for this "specialty".
Nite Dive: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and had 1 dive. So I have little or no classwork and 1 additional dive to do for this "specialty".
Underwater Naturalist: I already did the book work per the AOW requirement and have 1 Dive. So I have little or no classwork and no additional requirements for this "specialty".

The presentation time you speak of is I assume the video plus question and answer which by PADI standards does not need to be done in the classroom (for the specialties I listed). Your total additional investment is two additional shore dives and no equipment cost. For your additional investment you charge on average $500 plus cert fees. I mean come on! Book work or DVD as the case may be is the same for both the AOW as it is for the specialty. How can you even pretend that this is in the interests of the student?

 

[95yj]

My favorite is still boat dive. Pointy end, bow; other end stern; pisser, head; side you puke off of without getting covered in it, leeward; side you get covered in puke, windward; port has four letters just like left, so port is the left side; there's only one other side left, so starboard is the left side.

Where's my patch? Oops didn't pay my $100.

 

[pir8]

If you don't want to take the classes then don't take the classes. They are not for everyone. You are obviously an extraordinary person that everyone should do things for because you are you and after all you don't need them. By the way the Nav class is 3 dives, the Night class is 3 dives and the deep class is 4 dives. Other class work depends on the instructor. Find another shop willing to work for nothing.

 

[H2Andy]

You are obviously an extraordinary person that everyone should do things for because you are you and after all you don't need them.

dude, what a coincidence!

i am told this all the time

 

[pir8]

I really do expect to get flamed for that post

 

[RayJayJr]

IMHO PADI specialty courses, what’s useful and what’s not:

• Altitude Diver – read the book, its all there.
• Aware – Fish ID – use a fish ID card.
• Coral Reef Conservation – want to pay to watch the video?
• Boat – can be great, you can usually get more from a good DM and a good operator.
• Cavern – can be useful, depends on instructor
• Deep – complete waste of time.
• Digital Underwater Photographer – Non Diving – depends on instructor.
• Digital Underwater Photographer – Diving - depends on instructor, if you really want to learn go to Cathy Church, Brooks or the Nikon School.
• Discover Enriched Air Nitrox – only teaches 32 to 100FSW, waste of time, read the book, and take Enriched Air Diver if you need a card to get fills.
• Dive Propulsion Vehicle Diver – fun, can be a good program, make sure the have assortment of DPVs, Gavins, Farallons, etc. not just “kiddy stuff.”
• Drift Diver – best learned by doing, can be a great program.
• Dry Suit Diver – essential if you’ve never used a dry suit.
• Enriched Air Diver – wow, now I can use 32 and 36, you may need for fills.
• Equipment Specialist – get the oxyhacker regulator book instead,
• Ice Diver - best learned by doing, can be a great program.
• Multi-level Diver – should be a great program, rarely taught, rarely is.
• Night Diver - best learned by doing, can be a great program.
• Peak Performance Buoyancy – should be part of your basic class, if it’s not take fundies instead.
• Project AWARE Specialty Course – Wow, you can pay to see more PADI adverts.
• Search and Recovery Diver - best learned by doing, can be a great program.
• Semiclosed Rebreather - Dolphin/Atlantis – fine if you want to dive this gear.
• Semiclosed Rebreather - Drager Ray – fine if you want to dive this gear.
• Underwater Naturalist – usually a waste of time, can be great with the right instructor.
• Underwater Navigator – you should have learned this in your basic class.
• Underwater Photographer - depends on instructor, if you really want to learn go to Cathy Church, Brooks or the Nikon School
• Underwater Videographer – depends on instructor, I’d take the course at Brooks.
• PADI Wreck Diver – waste of time, read the book.

The quality of the courses depends entirely on the outlook and intent of the instructor(s) teaching to the course, which I'm sure you know - Why the hate for the wreck course?

Wreck Diving is a course that definitely holds value - Anyone interested in pursuing wreck diving should take it as an intro course - I have no doubt in warm areas that the course is probably lackluster at best, but my observation of the instruction of this course on the Canadian West coast has been that the instructional quality has been top notch (having heard by word of mouth). By and large, doing even non-penetration wreck dives in the environment Canadian waters offer is beyond intimidating - Having supervised instruction, basically a mentor to take you on a tour, is the safest way to decide if you want to continue your wreck diving education.

 

[RS]

I love the Brits. They're a nation with fine cusine, perfect teeth, cold beer, excellent car electrics and perfect engine gaskets.

Yeah Baby! Oh, behave!

 

[Thalassamania]

By and large, doing even non-penetration wreck dives in the environment Canadian waters offer is beyond intimidating

Really? Why? I can’t see needing formal instruction and a guide to look at the outside of a wreck. My first wreck dive (as a kid) was on the San Diego off the Long Island shore. I did nothing but go about the outside and pick up some scattered .30-06 ammo, I had a ball and was not at all intimidated.

 

[pir8]

Really? Why? I can’t see needing formal instruction and a guide to look at the outside of a wreck. My first wreck dive (as a kid) was on the San Diego off the Long Island shore. I did nothing but go about the outside and pick up some scattered .30-06 ammo, I had a ball and was not at all intimidated.

But you are special, not everyone is as great a diver as you. Not everyone has the presence that you command and they need someone to coach them in things that you didn't need it in.