Continuing Ed. or just paying to dive..

[Twiddles]

Oly as I dont know you I obviously had no intention of infering that you or your lds takes your students to the bank. What I am infering is that the system of training is not designed as much to educate as it is to make money off your students. As you subscribe to this ideology by the text of your post I can now infer that you do take your students to the bank. You cannot expect somebody starting a new sport to know in what they need to be trained. You cannot research what classes you might need to take over what other classes are available if you have no idea what you might need at 60 to 80 feet depth much less at 130 feet most people who have never dived dont.

PADI (Im using them ONLY because I was trained by PADI) places boat, nav, night and deep dives in there requirements for AOW. If you charge extra for those items you are indeed taking your students to the bank. You know the information is needed because it is in the program for AOW you only teach part of it because it allows you to charge again for "complete instruction". If instruction is needed teach it, if it requires additional dives to complete the instuction, add them. Dont tell me that you require an additional $525 (by the way costs around here are pretty fixed and dont vary by more than $10 either way) for that additional three hours of time (if it is even three hours). Add the additional dives for the other items if they are even required (boat dive comes to mind) and you have a clear case of wanting to just plain get paid period.

Now in the end if you even add say $200 to AOW it cost $325. but you get Nav Diver fully trained, Deep Diver fully trained, Boat Diver fully trained (lol), Night Diver fully trained and you add what two maybee three dives to the whole class (I mean actual dives required by PADI)? The diver has had better COMPLETE training and you have done your job. Please dont give me I give my students complete training, anybody who has dived 10 times can see the importance beyond the introductory brush given them of the above certifications. If you see fit to cover a subject because of its inherant risk to a diver then COVER the subject.

MSilvia my gear is MY GEAR, if it fails its my fault (disregarding manufacturer problems). If it hasnt been cleaned, its my fault, if its damaged its my fault. If you want to be down 60-80 feet or more only to find your bcd inflator sticks etc thats your business. I prefer to use my own gear so yes since my LDS supplies both my gear and my training and has been posted they have some flexibility as to how much both cost it was included in my estimate of cost.

 

[fisherdvm]

I cant believe anyone is vacant enough to not work those out for themselves. Basic common sense, certainly not something you need to pay someone to tell you.

There is no "boat speciality" here yet thousands of divers use boats every week in the main without incident. Cant see the need for that.

Wish I were as smart as you, String, will you have my baby?? :blinking:

 

[H2Andy]

String, will you have my baby?? :blinking:

dude, just last week you asked ME to have your baby...

what gives?

 

[fisherdvm]

I cant believe anyone is vacant enough to not work those out for themselves. Basic common sense, certainly not something you need to pay someone to tell you.

There is no "boat speciality" here yet thousands of divers use boats every week in the main without incident. Cant see the need for that.

Unfortunately, us Americans are not as arrogant as you Brits. I personally have never took "boat diving" speciality. I personally have never dropped weight on my toes. I personally never have tanks rolled off the boat onto me...

But these have happened to others... And as Thalassamia said, a good DM would tell you these things... But if they didn't... You wouldn't know.

I appreciate your input as a knowledgeable instructor, but you Brits tend to be too arrogant for my taste.... Fortunately, most folks I met from the UK are more down to earth than you are.

 

[grassyknoll]

I really think this thread is more a commentary on the natural development of a sport. Take most any similar pursuit, say for example martial arts. Over the last 20 years you have seen martial arts change drastically, what was once a sport primarily comprised of several disciplines-Karate/Judo/Ju-Jitsu/Tae Kwon Do, now encompasses dozens of off-shoot styles as well as the creation of completely new styles. As a sport becomes mainstream and its ranks swell, I feel there is a natural tendency for its participants to want to seek to define their differences within the sport and seek inclusion with those who share their passion (and exclude those who don't-think DIR).
The issue with all the specialty courses is two-fold, I feel a part of it goes back to what I expressed before, defining yourself by your exclusionary accomplishments within the sport (I'm a rescue/Tek/Cave diver). The second part is that your current 2-weekend-self-study OW course would not be offered if market forces were not accepting, its simply giving people what they want (definitely not what's best for them though). The sad fact is, a large segment of the population would likely never pursue diving if it took several months and encompassed all these other subjects, therefore offering them as "continuing education" becomes a necessary evil.
IMHO

 

[fisherdvm]

I really think this thread is more a commentary on the natural development of a sport. Take most any similar pursuit, say for example martial arts. Over the last 20 years you have seen martial arts change drastically, what was once a sport primarily comprised of several disciplines-Karate/Judo/Ju-Jitsu/Tae Kwon Do, now encompasses dozens of off-shoot styles as well as the creation of completely new styles. IMHO

I agree, the "I am better than thou", and "who needs this ....", is equivalent to the martial arts. Having trained in tae kwon do and judo, I noticed the argument continues - who is better. As a new organization try to form, the old ones will bash it as "not true to form". The market will drive scuba just like it did with martial arts... As I get older, I might give up judo and do something a little gentler - brazilian jiu jitsu maybe??

 

[gcbryan]

Oly as I dont know you I obviously had no intention of infering that you or your lds takes your students to the bank. What I am infering is that the system of training is not designed as much to educate as it is to make money off your students. As you subscribe to this ideology by the text of your post I can now infer that you do take your students to the bank. You cannot expect somebody starting a new sport to know in what they need to be trained. You cannot research what classes you might need to take over what other classes are available if you have no idea what you might need at 60 to 80 feet depth much less at 130 feet most people who have never dived dont.

PADI (Im using them ONLY because I was trained by PADI) places boat, nav, night and deep dives in there requirements for AOW. If you charge extra for those items you are indeed taking your students to the bank. You know the information is needed because it is in the program for AOW you only teach part of it because it allows you to charge again for "complete instruction". If instruction is needed teach it, if it requires additional dives to complete the instuction, add them. Dont tell me that you require an additional $525 (by the way costs around here are pretty fixed and dont vary by more than $10 either way) for that additional three hours of time (if it is even three hours). Add the additional dives for the other items if they are even required (boat dive comes to mind) and you have a clear case of wanting to just plain get paid period.

Now in the end if you even add say $200 to AOW it cost $325. but you get Nav Diver fully trained, Deep Diver fully trained, Boat Diver fully trained (lol), Night Diver fully trained and you add what two maybee three dives to the whole class (I mean actual dives required by PADI)? The diver has had better COMPLETE training and you have done your job. Please dont give me I give my students complete training, anybody who has dived 10 times can see the importance beyond the introductory brush given them of the above certifications. If you see fit to cover a subject because of its inherant risk to a diver then COVER the subject.

MSilvia my gear is MY GEAR, if it fails its my fault (disregarding manufacturer problems). If it hasnt been cleaned, its my fault, if its damaged its my fault. If you want to be down 60-80 feet or more only to find your bcd inflator sticks etc thats your business. I prefer to use my own gear so yes since my LDS supplies both my gear and my training and has been posted they have some flexibility as to how much both cost it was included in my estimate of cost.

Since you want free advice I'll give you some...your use of the word infer is incorrect. It should be imply. In talking about PADI it's not there requirement but rather their requirements. I don't want to let you out of this forum as a grammatically incorrect poster so my advice to you is free. Use it well.

Everyone including teachers do it in part to make money. What's new about that? You can chose which classes are worthwhile. Mostly diving is about diving. Go out and get some experience and you will know which additional classes you need to take if any.

I don't get your point regarding how much it costs to get a family into diving. You don't have to dive. It costs a lot to get a family into flying, boating, skiing, and most any other activity. I don't see a lot of rich dive store owners or instructors so I'm not sure what your point is.

What is complete training? Training and learning never stop. You are trained well enough to not kill yourself while diving/learning/gaining experience at the level to which you were trained.

 

[Ann Marie]

I think that the specialty really depends a lot on the instructor. I take my OW classes diving off the shore and the boat. That way they get the introduction to both. There are some things that are helpful to know when getting on a boat as well as getting through the surf. Luckily, we have access to both in So. Cal.

I know people that take classes so that they have someone to dive with. Some of my students are that way but I usually try and shoot my past students an email saying, hey I'm going diving, anyone want to come when I have some free time. (And, no, I don't charge them.)

I'm kind of an over-achiever and like to take classes, any classes. I took a lot of specialties before I became an instructor. Some could have been better but then that goes back to the instructor.

Think of Advanced Open Water more of an appetizer. It gives you the taste of something without having to be stuck with a whole plate of it.

I've had students tell me that I am pretty picky. Like you need to have your kit streamlined--no dangling gauges if we are diving together as part of a class. If I see you skull, I'm going call you on it. If I see a crappy kick, I'm going to correct that too. That sort of thing. But I feel that is part of my job, heck, if you want to dive sloppy, find someone else to pay. But I also try and make it fun. A lot of my past students are now friends and are also good divers.

I'm not in it for the money. What I do get paid just goes back into my diving (either gear, teaching materials, classes, or an annual trip) I sat down and figuered how much I make with 1 open water student---$6/meeting class/pool or ocean setting (each class is a minimum of 3 hours and can last 12 hours for boat days). I instruct because I love being able to share diving with someone. It opens up a whole new world to them. To those that infer that all Instructors push specialties for the money--shame on you.

 

[noobascooba]

Unfortunately, us Americans are not as arrogant as you Brits.

Harsh. I'm british, and quite humble really. I know I suck.

 

[String]

PADI (Im using them ONLY because I was trained by PADI) places boat, nav, night and deep dives in there requirements for AOW.

In fairness to them not even PADI put "boat" as mandatory for OW so thats one utterly worthless speciality you dont HAVE to do.