cold water vs. warm water

[Crush]

For those cold water divers, I'd like to highlight some of the points raised in Alert Diver Magazine, Fall 2009, Dive Slate:

"In the last four years, DAN [Divers' Alert Network] has recorded 68 fatalities in the inland waters of the United States and Canada an just 20 fatalities [OP note: here I assume `in the same diving constituency'] abroad. Contributing factors in inland fatalities often involve cold water, poor visibility and unforeseen objects."

"Their [Eric Douglas and Petar DeNobel] conclusion: Practicing emergency procedures in a swimming pool or in comfortable Caribbean waters may not be sufficient training for problems that arise in less favorable conditions."

 

[tstormdiver]

Very true. Diving cold water is a world all of its own. Unless there is some turnover of the thermal layers, however, cold water diving usually offers some of the best Vis. I've seen in fresh water. Along with practicing emergency procedures in cold water, redundancy isn't a bad idea either. Anymore, I will not dive cold water without some kind of redundancy (usually doubles, if not a pony bottle slung), as freeze- ups can be a reality.

 

[CamG]

Greetings mpetryk and thank you for your post!
It is very different and should be prepared for and proper cold water techniques observed. As tstorm has mentioned redundancy is a must in water temperature's where free flows are common. My personal rule I dive redundant any dive over 60' and on most dives in general. Doubles, side mount, or pony's are to easy to carry not to have one. It is like insurance that will probably come in use when you least expect it.
One thing is certain about cold water, the wrecks are unbelievable! Just a recreational trip to Lake Huron will make my point. It is a very awesome thing indeed to have such an abundance of really cool wrecks inland and in super condition.
Proper cold water training is vitally important and should not be over looked as DAN I am sure mentioned in the material. As cold water divers we assume the risk and train to minimize it. Ignorance is not an excuse it is suicide! I am sorry for the harsh comments but it is just the COLD hard facts! It is safe to dive cold water when prepared with training and properly geared up. It would be interesting to know exactly how many fatalities were tech. vs. rec, and where they were. I am sure that the information is in the study. I have not looked at it yet but will do so.
With that being said I love both warm and cold environments! My goal is to promote diving in your local environment and do it safe! What ever special training requirements that pertain to your environment train for and master them well.
When traveling and diving outside of that inform yourself, via. Scuba Board, Discover with DM, independent research, etc. Do not find yourself in a environment unprepared that is not a good situation. I like to research and read so I digest many different diving books and materials and have found great tips and pointers that have been helpful for any environment.
If outside your comfort / experience level get the proper training to be prepared!
That simple and everyone will be safe and DAN will not have to write about fatalities, I wish and pray that would be the case. Even when we observe all the safe diving practices and train hard things still happen. Nature calls and we are not exempt from or human condition. But that cannot be called dive related in my opinion. If you have a heart condition and dive anyway then that is your choice and not a fault of diving when you drown because of a heart attach. I bring this up because it happened in my local area and the family of the deceased knew that it could happen and when it did understood. Was it easy no, but we all assume our own risks knowing what our limitations are. One should never put another at risk from our own assumed risk.
Enough of the opinion's and dive prepared and trained to handle what situation may come up!
CamG Keep diving....keep training....keep learning!

 

[drbill]

Of course a lot opf warm water diving is done with a trained DM as a guide whereas this is the exception at least here in California. That may be a significant factor. Since you refer to inland waters this may or may not be an issue.

Also, these numbers should be normalized to give us the best comparison. For example, if there are 680,000 dives in cold water, that's a fatality rate of 1 in 10,000. If there are 20,000 inland dives abroad, that would mean a fatality rate of 1 in a thousand. The raw numbers may not provide comparable and therefore meaningful statistics.

 

[DCBC]

The definition of "cold" and "warm" water is largely subjective. The temperatures in the North Atlantic are on the average 20+ degrees colder than California and 40+ degrees colder than Florida. In-land divers diving under the ice, still have warmer water than what divers experience here at times. A diver's perceptions of the conditions he's trained to handle may pose a hazard to the reality of a new location.

Obviously the requirements of diver training are lower in warm water than in cold water with higher waves and currents. The hazards of diving in "cold water" are undeniable. Cold water affects decompression obligations and when mixed with poor visibility contributes to narcosis, as well as lowers the feeling of personal security (which in turn can lower the panic threshold).

 

[fisheater]

Not to mention more constrictive exposure protection, more lead, more buoyancy control issues, etc.

 

[idocsteve]

The thread title is quite misleading, since you're comparing a lot more than just water temperature in those fatalities.

As per the study you quoted...

"Contributing factors in inland fatalities often involve cold water, poor visibility and unforeseen objects."

The water temperature might have little to nothing to do with it.

 

[offthewall1]

For those cold water divers, I'd like to highlight some of the points raised in Alert Diver Magazine, Fall 2009, Dive Slate:

"In the last four years, DAN [Divers' Alert Network] has recorded 68 fatalities in the inland waters of the United States and Canada an just 20 fatalities [OP note: here I assume `in the same diving constituency'] abroad. Contributing factors in inland fatalities often involve cold water, poor visibility and unforeseen objects."

"Their [Eric Douglas and Petar DeNobel] conclusion: Practicing emergency procedures in a swimming pool or in comfortable Caribbean waters may not be sufficient training for problems that arise in less favorable conditions."

While I appreciate the idea and thought behind your post, the conclusions reached by the referred article seem meaningless as presented.

Being here in the Northeast, much of the diving we do is inland cold water diving. In the cases of death that I am personally aware of, while occurring in "cold " water, they could just as easily have occurred in warm water. These being heart issues, equipment malfunction, panic etc...

I also don't have any reason to believe all foreign fatalities (in warm waters worldwide) are reported to DAN. While they try to keep records and by far are the best in the world at doing so, they surely do not receive nor have a complete listing of worldwide fatalities.

With all that said, we've known for years that divers trained in the warm clear waters of south Florida and the Caribbean are typically ill-suited for diving in cold water. Our visitors from the south quite regularly don't last too long in the water up here. On the other hand, NE divers have no problem adjusting to warm clear water. Afterall, as we say - if you can dive here - you can dive anywhere. When five feet of vis and 45F degree water is your norm... everything else seems like heaven.

With that said, I caution NE quarry divers (those who've grown up in enclosed inland water- absent great depths, currents, strong seas and the open ocean,) from becoming complacent when you journey south. There is a huge difference between being an NE Quarry Diver and a NE Offshore or Open Ocean Diver. NE Ocean divers are about as hardcore as it gets. Swimming around in five feet of vis, 45F degree water at 100ft out in the open ocean with a full knot+ current and 6 - 10 ft seas is far different than 50ft in a quarry without a ripple.

I bring all of this up because simply identifying deaths as warm water vs cold water or inland water vs. open ocean... is really not comparable. Far more information is needed to determine if the conclusion is supported by any real data.

I read this article before seeing this post, and I shook my head at the conclusion when I read it. I usually support the information posted in DAN, but this article is really lacking.

 

[Crush]

Of course a lot opf warm water diving is done with a trained DM as a guide whereas this is the exception at least here in California. That may be a significant factor. Since you refer to inland waters this may or may not be an issue.

Also, these numbers should be normalized to give us the best comparison. For example, if there are 680,000 dives in cold water, that's a fatality rate of 1 in 10,000. If there are 20,000 inland dives abroad, that would mean a fatality rate of 1 in a thousand. The raw numbers may not provide comparable and therefore meaningful statistics.

Dr Bill - your comments are reasonable, but they are questions and opinions rather than solutions. I posted an excerpt of the article as printed. Have you tried to determine if the study meets with your standards for rigor?

PS: I have a Ph.D. in physical chemistry, so the application of math and sats is not beyond my scope. I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest, but your comments offer nothing that is new or insightful. I fact, they only serve to muddy the water.

Cheers.

 

[Crush]

The thread title is quite misleading, since you're comparing a lot more than just water temperature in those fatalities.

As per the study you quoted...

"Contributing factors in inland fatalities often involve cold water, poor visibility and unforeseen objects."

The water temperature might have little to nothing to do with it.

idocsteve - thanks for your post. For a general comment on how helpful it was, see my response to drbill.

How is it, Dr., that the sentence "Contributing factors in inland fatalities often involve cold water, poor visibility and unforeseen objects" leads you to inform us that "The water temperature might have little to nothing to do with it." What (of value) did your post offer? Thanks for posting, though!