cold water vs. warm water

[Crush]

While I appreciate the idea and thought behind your post, the conclusions reached by the referred article seem meaningless as presented.

My apologies for having wasted your time. For more meaningful details, please read the original article, or contact the researchers cited therein.

I do appreciate your dive experience and your skills. However, the purpose of he post was to draw the attention of New Divers and Those Considering Diving to the general challenges of cold water diving.

 

[offthewall1]

My apologies for having wasted your time. For more meaningful details, please read the original article, or contact the researchers cited therein.

I do appreciate your dive experience and your skills. However, the purpose of he post was to draw the attention of New Divers and Those Considering Diving to the general challenges of cold water diving.

Lets revisit...

The article makes a blanket conclusion that diving in cold water with poor visibility and unseen objects is more dangerous than diving in warm, clear water with no unseen objects. I believe this is a logical, common sense and foregone conclusion, therefore for DAN to have made such a statement seems beneath them. They themselves did very little to explain the conclusion... so let me try... just a little.

Cold Water increases risks for many things in diving, most of which can be dismissed by proper preparation, training and equipment foir the diving at hand. Your risk of hypothermia certainly increases as do certain lung maladies and even heart maladies etc... however a properly dressed (insulated) diver quickly overcomes these and so the idea that temperature alone increases risk of death is eliminated almost entirely.

Limited Visibility increases risk of most likely - panic but possibly also the risk of entanglement, entrapment or injury from unforseen objects. These too are easily mitigated by properly trained and prepared divers.

The one thing among all of this that speaks out above all else is Panic. Some of the best trained, well equipped and prepared divers will still have the tendancy to panic. So panic is the X factor here... and because DAN has focused on Panic many times before in it's articles, I will not say anymore about that.

Cold, Limited Vis and unseen objects may all contribute to Panic... and most likely so in divers who are not properly trained and prepared.

What we have in the US inland waters is just that. A good number of ill-outfitted, ill-prepared and ill-trained divers coming out of Open Water classes thinking they're ready to take on the rigors of cold, limited visibility inland dives. Quite frankly, most of them are not prepared. I would like to see a DAN article which focuses on the poor training being offered these days across the country - as it - and it alone is what leads to most of these accidents.

You'll find many people on this board - and threads related, that talk directly to this problem. Don't run from cold, limited visibility water - I say run from Instructors who teach in these areas of the country that are not fulfilling their duty to properly prepare you for their rigors.

Cheers... and be safe!

 

[DCBC]

...What we have in the US inland waters is just that. A good number of ill-outfitted, ill-prepared and ill-trained divers coming out of Open Water classes thinking they're ready to take on the rigors of cold, limited visibility inland dives. Quite frankly, most of them are not prepared. ...Don't run from cold, limited visibility water - I say run from Instructors who teach in these areas of the country that are not fulfilling their duty to properly prepare you for their rigors.

There is little doubt that cold water is a hazard in and by itself. This is a fact and doesn't need to be discussed.

I agree with your statement that divers can be trained to dive safely in cold water. Unfortunately, much of the diver training today doesn't properly prepare a diver to dive independently, as a member of a buddy team in warm clear water, let alone in cold water with poor visibility. So again I agree.

I do believe however that it is difficult for a student to run from instructors that "not fulfilling their duty to properly prepare you for their rigors." The student puts his/her trust in the Instructor and in-turn the certification agency certifying them. One does not know what they do not know. This discussion is however somewhat outside the scope of this thread.

Cold water kills divers, even those who are properly trained. Cold water is a hazard, as is high current, or decompression diving. It can be addressed, but the moral of the story is that it is a hazard which requires particular attention. It can kill the best trained divers.

I myself became a hypothermia casualty while I was diving commercially in the North Sea. Despite my training, thermal protection can fail. Cold water kills every year. The temperature of warm water does not.

 

[offthewall1]

. Cold water kills every year. The temperature of warm water does not.

Actually warm water does kill. People drown in it... but more to the pooint of this thread, hypothermia can occur in "warm" water as well if proper exposure protection is not worn and/or the exposure is too long.

I think another topic not adequately addressed in the DAN article or on this thread so far is what is cold water and what is warm water? This can mean different things to different people. As an example - around here, we may say "ahh the waters warm" when it's 60F degrees... because usually it's 45F... however the water is still not warm by comparison to say 80F degrees.

Cold vs. warm and when hypothermia sets in is going to be different from one individual to the next. Such as my wife is skinny and gets cold in 78F degree water rather easily. She wears a 5mm or 7mm in this water.... whereas I'm quite comfortable in a 3mm suit or maybe none at all. I weigh 230lbs... she weighs 110.

Often people think it is safe to jump into warm clear caribbean water without any thermal protection, however they quickly become chilled. Imagine coming up a great distance from the boat, against a current, already cold with no thermal protection and having to float for an hour or two before pick-up. This is not a good situation. Even 80F degree water drains the core body temperature.

Where am I going with all of this? It is in fact possible to die from exposure in warm water... so your statement is incorrect.

As a lesson for newer divers, I highly recommend always wearing some type of core body protection (like a 1.5mm or 2.5mm shorty) even in the warmest of waters. It is another well thought out safety measure. Quite frankly I advise a full suit almost everywhere in the world due to stingy thingy's.

My story - About 10 years ago while diving in Roatan Honduras... I ascended into a massive school of golf ball sized jellyfish. I was diving in just my bathing suit. Of course I used my regulator to try to blow them out of the way... but there were just too many - no matter what I did they closed in on me... and the slight current didn't help in keeping them from drifting right back into me...

So for the purpose of exposure protection... always wear something - even when you think you don't need it.

 

[Peter Guy]

As a cold water, limited visibility diver and someone who has been aware of several deaths in these cold waters, I am certainly of the opinion that cold water DOES have a significant impact on the incidents. Not a direct impact, but an indirect one that, unfortunately, reflects upon the standardized training programs.

I believe cold water is a contributing factor for the following reasons:

a. Cold requires insulation -- insulation requires weight -- weight leads to overweighting and poor buoyancy control -- AND, in at least two cases recently, drowning. Two divers within the last year or so died because they couldn't stay on the surface after getting low/out of air. Because of the cold water they had lots of insulation onto which they put too much lead and once the panic cycle had set in, even though they got to the surface, they couldn't/wouldn't inflate their BCs and didn't ditch their weights. I don't believe they would have had the same issues in warm water in which they would have been much less overweighted.

b. Cold water increases stress in many ways which, in at least one case I know, may well have been a contributing factor to a cardiac incident which led to panic and death. Just the fact of having so much insulating gear on makes diving harder, increasing the activity, and stress, levels which can help trigger a cardiac incident. Warm water just doesn't present the same issue.

These are just two examples of why I believe cold water diving DOES lead to a higher death rate. In most cases better training, and perhaps better equipment, would reduce the stress which leads to the incident chain -- but you can't dive and eliminate all the stressors.

 

[DCBC]

Actually warm water does kill. People drown in it... but more to the pooint of this thread, hypothermia can occur in "warm" water as well if proper exposure protection is not worn and/or the exposure is too long.

...Where am I going with all of this? It is in fact possible to die from exposure in warm water... so your statement is incorrect.

I addressed the what was warm and what was cold water in my first posting. I see no need to repeat myself.

As you seem to think 80 degree F water temperature kills people, perhaps you might cite one case that will substantiate death of a diver by hypothermia in 80 degree water temperature. If all you have is scientific possibility (not probability), it has no credibility in this discussion imo.

 

[Crush]

Sometimes I am amazed at the lack of intellectual discipline in scubaboard posts. My original quotation was, I believe, unassailable: "Practicing emergency procedures in a swimming pool or in comfortable Caribbean waters may not be sufficient training for problems that arise in less favorable conditions." Yet people still argue against this.

Here is my preposition: I could post something like "rapid, emergency ascents can lead to complications, including diver death" in the New Divers and Those Considering Diving forum to which I will likely receive the following general classes of response:

1. Most readers: no response;
2. About 50%: A favourable response - in most cases responses will contain additional insight and personal experience. These will usually come from patient, moderate instructors;
3. About 30%: A dogmatic response such as "there is no reason for out-of-air emergencies or emergency ascents." The response will undoubtedly contain the phrase "plan your dive and dive your plan." While absolutely correct, these responses are unhelpful as they do little to elucidate the post and reflect the respondent's "baggage." Such responses typically arise from tech divers who see themselves as superior to other divers and believe that only their way is the right way. Please note: this is NOT to say that that the majority of tech divers have such an attitude, rather, I have observed that most such responses come from tech divers with attitude; and
4. About 20%: A failed attempt at being insightful while being contrary. Such a response will typically posit that arriving at the surface after a rapid ascent from 50 meters does not necessarily have any relationship to that diver's death a few hours later from AGE-like symptoms. These individuals are usually egotistic, polemic, and conceited, but have little formal training (although they may have logged many dives). Also, they very much enjoy seeing their own opinions in print. In these cases, their egos and belief in their superiority blinds them to the foolishness of their responses.

Cheers!

 

[offthewall1]

I addressed the what was warm and what was cold water in my first posting. I see no need to repeat myself.

As you seem to think 80 degree F water temperature kills people, perhaps you might cite one case that will substantiate death of a diver by hypothermia in 80 degree water temperature. If all you have is scientific possibility (not probability), it has no credibility in this discussion imo.

Don't believe me...

... this is from DUI's website

"Why do I want a drysuit for warm water scuba diving?

Did you know there are more cases of hypothermia in the Caribbean than in colder water locations? That’s because people don’t realize the impact that being in water cooler than them (cooler than 98.6°) can have on their body.

In water, you lose heat 25 times faster than you do in the air. Just using a drysuit will make a huge difference. And by being able to adjust what you wear underneath depending on your dive profile, you can increase your bottom time, improve air consumption and, more importantly, substantially enhance your comfort and enjoyment. This is because each time you go into the water, your body gets colder."

More info...
Water Temperatures Decrease Time Before Exhaustion and Decrease Survial Time
Water Temperature (F) Expected Time Before Exhaustion or Unconsciousness Expected Time of Survival

32.5° < 15 minutes 45 minutes
32.5° &#8211; 40° 15 &#8211; 30 minutes 30 &#8211; 90 minutes
40° &#8211; 50° 30 &#8211; 60 minutes 1 &#8211; 3 hours
50° &#8211; 60° 1 &#8211; 2 hours 1 &#8211; 6 hours
60° &#8211; 70° 2 &#8211; 7 hours 2 &#8211; 40 hours
70° &#8211; 80° 3 &#8211; 12 hours 3 hours &#8211; indefinite

This chart would seem to indicate people could be susceptible to warn water hypothermia (and unconsciousness) in as little as 3 hours (above 70F.) I'm not going to spend a lot of time researching for examples - but I'm quite confident they exist and are not just hypothetical.

http://www.dui-online.com/tech_warmwater.htm

... And yet still another well written article from a US Coast Guardsman...

http://www.mstoverwater.com/hypothermia.html

 

[offthewall1]

In most cases better training, and perhaps better equipment, would reduce the stress which leads to the incident chain.

Amen!

 

[drdaddy]

As a cold water, limited visibility diver and someone who has been aware of several deaths in these cold waters, I am certainly of the opinion that cold water DOES have a significant impact on the incidents. Not a direct impact, but an indirect one that, unfortunately, reflects upon the standardized training programs.

I believe cold water is a contributing factor for the following reasons:

a. Cold requires insulation -- insulation requires weight -- weight leads to overweighting and poor buoyancy control -- AND, in at least two cases recently, drowning. Two divers within the last year or so died because they couldn't stay on the surface after getting low/out of air. Because of the cold water they had lots of insulation onto which they put too much lead and once the panic cycle had set in, even though they got to the surface, they couldn't/wouldn't inflate their BCs and didn't ditch their weights. I don't believe they would have had the same issues in warm water in which they would have been much less overweighted.

b. Cold water increases stress in many ways which, in at least one case I know, may well have been a contributing factor to a cardiac incident which led to panic and death. Just the fact of having so much insulating gear on makes diving harder, increasing the activity, and stress, levels which can help trigger a cardiac incident. Warm water just doesn't present the same issue.

These are just two examples of why I believe cold water diving DOES lead to a higher death rate. In most cases better training, and perhaps better equipment, would reduce the stress which leads to the incident chain -- but you can't dive and eliminate all the stressors.

As a cold water low visibility diver myself, I want to strongly agree with what Peter Guy wrote:

"Because of the cold water they had lots of insulation onto which they put too much lead and once the panic cycle had set in, even though they got to the surface, they couldn't/wouldn't inflate their BCs and didn't ditch their weights."

I've seen this very thing happen, where even if you have a pony, one cannot inflate their BCD directly - you must inflate orally and that's difficult on the rough cold surface when you are stressed! Better to orally inflate BCD (if possible) before you get to the surface with a couple of breaths from your pony before you get all out of breath from kicking to keep your head above the crashing surf.

And with a load of crab - well you've added on at least another 5+ pounds of weight. Dump your weights and the crabs!!!! Heck, dump your gear - it's not worth your life!