Cold water diving is a PITA

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Bill, we're all using and mix-matching the incorrect terminology here.
There is dry weight, and weight as in bouyancy.

Generally speaking, you can take off dry weight (lead) when switching from a stock BC to a Bp/W. This is because a stock BC is more positively buoyant than a Bp/W; due to fabric retention of air. Less fabric, less retention of positive bouyancy.

When switching from Al 80 tanks to St 80 tanks, you get to take 5lbs of dry weight off. Because Al 80's are 5lbs positively buoyant at 500psi, where as St 80's don't have this problem. So, sorry, I forgot to mention that in my original post. Even though both Al 80's and St 80s are 30lbs dry empty weight. You will wear 5lbs of dry lead for the Al 80.
However, with Al 63's and Al 50's, they only get (at most) +1lbs positive at the end, so generally you do not have to add extra weight for compensate for those Al tanks.

We cannot tell you how much dry weight you will get to drop if you switch to a Bp/W. It greatly varies; and honestly I think the majority of answers to that question are skewed here on scubaboard. Because I see more new divers posting their change over, and they might have been overweighted in the first place. That's just my speculation because most of my friends and I (differing body types and weight) only had to drop 5lbs at most when we made our switch.
Also, some BC models are just more buoyant than others. You may already be using a BC that's just not very buoyant by design.

Bottom line: way too many factors to give you an honest answer.

So there's really no set answer, as much as it's painful to not know. If you can get your hands on a Bp/W to borrow out for several dives, that will help out a lot.
I know Seven Seas rents out Scuba Pro Litehawks, which are very close to a Bp/W in terms of minimum fabric. In fact other than the Zeagle Express Tec, I think it's the closest thing to a Bp/W without being one that you could try.
 
Let's look at one item at a time.

AL80 to HP100: reference to (Scuba Cylinder Specification Chart from Huron Scuba, Ann Arbor Michigan)

S80 is 31.6 lb empty dry, +4lb empty in water. In order to compensate the + buoyance, you need to carry 4lb. Making your tank+ballast 35.5lb.
HP100 is 33.1 empty dry, -2lb empty in water. That means you can take off 2 lb on your belf. Making total 31.1lb.

If you do this switch, You can take 6lb off your belt, but HP100 is also 2lb heavier dry. So you lose total of 4.4lb of dry weight.

Switing to BCD to Bp/w, you mainly gaining the buoyance contribuated by the padding on the BCD. My guess is about 2-4lb depending on model and size of your BCD..

So both change, you are looking to lose 6.5 to 8.5lb total. Not a huge percentage of your total weight but I think every but helps at this point.

That's what I am trying to get at, Ben. How much less does my total rig weigh (dry) when I am walking out to the surf (or in from the surf) if I go Steel instead of AL and BP/W instead of BCD? Assume XL BCD and same size Steel and AL (so as to compare apples with apples).

If I thought I might lose a total weight of 12 lbs in my overall rig weight, that would make a very significant difference. 6 lbs, not so much.

I'm sorry if I don't know exactly how to ask the question.

- Bill
 
One other thing to keep in mind is that, when it comes to dry weight, where and how you carry it makes a big difference in how much you "feel the weight".

For example, when carrying 20lbs of weight in a pair of (relatively) floppy weight pouches mounted inside of a soft flexible BC, the weight is not super well supported and tends to shift on you. Even when the shift is subtle, it still creates a pendulum effect that can make you feel unstable. The lack of good support for the weight means you tend to REALLY feel it, especially if you're not (or unable to) standing up straight.

On a BP/W with a properly fit harness, the weight of the tank is mounted very rigidly to the plate, and the weight is well supported and distributed by the harness. I'm neither a physicist nor a physiologist, but I can tell from experience that, anecdotally, 6lbs of weight in a BC pocket or on a weight belt feels significantly heavier than 6lbs of weight mounted on a plate.
 
I'm neither a physicist

I am. (A physics teacher, actually). You are talking about torque. But no matter, I take your point.

Taking the mid point of Nora's estimate of "6.5 to 8.5lb total", and adjusting that upwards by 50% to take into account the "feel" (torque) that HepCat (love that name!) mentions, let's say that together it feels like 11.25 lbs. Hmm..that's definitely worth thinking about.

Potentially I could purchase a BP/W combo (price estimate?) and rent the DS from Bamboo Reef and the steel tanks (nitrox) from Aquarius. Still quite a bit of hassle but might be worth it if it got us to actually enjoy the cold water diving most of the time -- and it would help us keep our skills up. Once a month.

Peter I was thinking about your boat in Pt. Lobos -- you mentioned entry is easy, like "falling off the boat". That got me thinking -- I would fall off a boat is HI any day of the week, but a boat entry in cold water strikes me as a completely different animal than one in warm water. Man, jumping into 55 deg water -- you better be rea-DY!! No way do you want to have DS leaks, your air off, or a loose face mask!

OK, so it will make us better divers. I'm still trying....







 
Peter I was thinking about your boat in Pt. Lobos -- you mentioned entry is easy, like "falling off the boat". That got me thinking -- I would fall off a boat is HI any day of the week, but a boat entry in cold water strikes me as a completely different animal than one in warm water. Man, jumping into 55 deg water -- you better be rea-DY!! No way do you want to have DS leaks, your air off, or a loose face mask!
I bought my dry suit about a year ago on ebay for about half of retail. It was a new suit and I have been very happy with it.

Have you considered a boat dive at the Channel Islands? I know it is a long drive for you. My friend and I don't mind the 3-4 hour drive. Anacapa and Catalina are both great boat destinations. I know it would be a pain to rent your gear from Bamboo Reef and then drive down south.

We also like diving Pt. Lobos which is a 3-4 hour drive for us. I have not gone out on one of the Monterey boats yet. I hope to try them. I have dove Big Sur on a boat out of Morro Bay. It was a great trip.
 
Have you considered a boat dive at the Channel Islands? I know it is a long drive for you. My friend and I don't mind the 3-4 hour drive. Anacapa and Catalina are both great boat destinations. I know it would be a pain to rent your gear from Bamboo Reef and then drive down south..

We dove in Catalina last summer and loved it. I was surprised that the water temp difference was enough to make it a very pleasant experience. We have thought about going back, but considering the travel time, cost, and variety of dive spots, we usually see Hawaii as a better choice.

- Bill
 
OK, so it will make us better divers. I'm still trying....

Unrelated to the physics discussion, i'll also add that I'd be more then happy to go shore diving with you guys one day, and help in whatever ways I can. Just send me a PM.
 
I have not read all the posts..but I feel your pain.

However..on like my 15th dive (in Monterey) I had a unbeleivable dive at Point Lobos.. Leapord Sharks as well as a huge Angel Shark, as well as 60 foof viz. It's a commitment, but it can have a big payoff!

We have our own gear and steel hp100's which help with getting the weighting down.

The Kelp Forests are amazing..hang in there and keep trying, it will pay off!
 
There is no way that cold water diving is ever going to be light and easy. You can make it lighter, and easier, and you've gotten a bunch of tips on this. But I will tell you that lugging gear and walking in it gets easier with time. When I started diving, I took all my stuff to the closest spot to the water that I could find, in multiple trips, and assembled it there. Nowadays, if I'm single tank diving, I really don't care how long the walk is. With doubles in cold water, I'm a bit fussier . . . but I've walked several hundred yards in my dry suit and double Al80s in Mexico. I just did it slowly :)
 
I couldn't have said it better. No way cold water will be as easy as tropical. But it does get easier as your gear fig improve, you skill improve, and most importantly, you will get the tricks after a while.

I remembered I really had hard time my OW class. At that time, I was wear 7mm farmer john, full deatured BCD, AL80, 30lb of weight total. I could barely crawl out of the surf zone and stand up with those gear wet. After a while with gear improvement and careful weight check, weight started to come down. Shore entry/exit started to get easier. Fast forward to today, the entry and exist with single tank at break water really doesn't bother me anymore, especially after I hiked down the rocky path at butterfly house with a set of double.

There is no way that cold water diving is ever going to be light and easy. You can make it lighter, and easier, and you've gotten a bunch of tips on this. But I will tell you that lugging gear and walking in it gets easier with time. .... :)
 
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