Closed ladder with fins on?

[lowviz]

..........this thread was to ask if people in other places have been required to climb a closed ladder with fins on. ................

Yes, happens here a lot. Continuing String's explanation, you want fins on immediately after falling off in rough seas so you can quickly clear the ladder and get set for your next timed grab.

We also have surface current and a lot of the wrecks are in two major and very active shipping lanes. If you can't swim to the tag line before you pass the float, the captain has a serious and immediate safety issue. Best case, you get a pissed off mate on a second line as your rescue swimmer. -can't always get to you in time. If not, then courtesy dictates you give the boat a giant double-handed "O" for "I'm OK, -just going for a long walk to see if a container ship can turn me into a chum streak." The mate will start emptying water bottles and tossing them over ever 5 minutes or so. When all the divers are up, everybody gets to follow the bread crumbs to see if you can be found. If this happens before everyone's last dive, you may not want to be found. Sorry, the captain is way more right than wrong. I don't like his ladder, but local conditions make him right for what he is using. and btw, if I was adrift out here I would much rather have the captain who is getting bashed come look for me than have Emily Post take a stab at it.

 

[piikki]

In any sort of rough sea with wind and/or current where its foolhardy to stay holding onto anything on the boat to take them off when the ladder is moving up or down 4-5ft every few seconds. Fully kitted is the only safe entry. If you want to risk a boat on the head, a ladder on the head, being dragged under the boat or being unable to swim back to it should you lose your grip by all means try to remove your fins but if you're sane keep them on and climb fully kitted. Remove the fins and the rest of the gear onboard.

Id ask when is holding onto a boat in anything but benign conditions to remove fins which also render you unable to swim a good idea?

If boats have proper christmas tree ladders designed for climbing with fins it makes no sense to remove them (and if it doesnt have such a ladder why is it pretending to be a dive boat if its not properly equipped?)

I was going to say that it can HARDLY be just a NJ phenomenon that divers are required to board boats fully kitted in conditions that require it. However, whenever I have been diving in conditions that remotely require keeping fins on, the boats have been ADEQUATELY equipped.

That said, I always inquire about these things beforehand because I have physical issues, and would certainly oppose climbing closed ladder with fins on. It would be a showstopper. I have actually done it - in singles kit, in calm water and the ladder was very short (what possessed me, I do not know! It was in the early days).

Best boats really are the ones with t-ladders with good incline (and clearance), rails on top and helpful guy waiting to grab your manifold/valve and guide your fin tips onto the deck for the last hard transition. Does not hurt that deck is on one level and benches are close either. I have not yet had the luxury of diving from a boat with lift but that sounds awfully nice too!

I am not against not removing fins at all if the set up is good. It's the right way in waves and strong current. It's no joy bending around trying to get them off, especially with more than singles rig, trying not to get whacked around.

 

[scottm]

Most of my boat diving (and all of my NJ/NY boat diving) has been fins on exits. NC, SC, FL (multiple boats), and a Nekton liveaboard have all been fins-on-affairs. 6 packs in Cozumel and Bonaire have been fins off (up a very small closed ladder, sometimes with gear doffed on the surface but always in relatively calm seas compared to the NE; I still don't hand my fins up but rather loop my hands through the straps).

The vast majority of boats I have dove off of use T/christmas tree ladders. I can think of one boat I've recently dove from in NY that had a closed ladder but still recommended (though did not require) fins on boarding. In NY/NJ specifically (and probably other areas as evidenced by previous posters) I believe fins on is by far the safest way to get back aboard a boat. You simply don't want to spend time on the surface removing fins and risking a boat or ladder to the head or a dropped fin while trying to hand it up, clip it off, or loop it through your hands -- time the waves and quickly get all 4 limbs securely on the ladder and begin climbing it. If seas are calm and the crew is willing, they may help you step out of your fins once you're back onboard, though I usually walk back to my spot with them on.

 

[Krenath]

I'm pretty athletic, being a climber as well as a diver, and feel that I can climb nearly anything under nearly any conditions, yet I have never and will never climb out with my fins still on my feet. Nor will I surrender my fins until I'm aboard.

When I exit, my fins are securely around my wrists so my hands and feet are free to get me up the ladder without any extra challenge. If I were to fall off the ladder, I'll still have my fins and I'll still have ankles to connect them to.

If the boat captain has a problem with that, he can get his tip and future business from some other diver.

I don't see why paying customers would give money to be treated like that.

 

[String]

If you insist on removing fins for xmas tree ladders your best bet is to not dive in parts of the world that have current and rough water. Swimming back to a ladder is the least of your worries - your more immediate problem is getting a boat or ladder on your head while you desperately hang on while trying to remove the things in the first place. If you survive that THEN you can worry about trying to swim without them.

 

[Krenath]

I've done fine on closed-side ladders in rough water and current so far. Without a tag line to hang on to. When there's some part of the boat other than a ladder to hold on to, I hold on to that and move to the ladder when I'm ready. When there's not, I hang on to the ladder on the down-current side so I'm not directly under it.

I haven't tried it yet, but if I really needed a tag line, I could clip my buddy line to the ladder, UNclip it from my gear, and hold on to that.

I don't see how changing the type of ladder is going to make hanging on to one any more or less safe.

 

[Gilldiver]

I've done fine on closed-side ladders in rough water and current so far. Without a tag line to hang on to. When there's some part of the boat other than a ladder to hold on to, I hold on to that and move to the ladder when I'm ready. When there's not, I hang on to the ladder on the down-current side so I'm not directly under it.

I haven't tried it yet, but if I really needed a tag line, I could clip my buddy line to the ladder, UNclip it from my gear, and hold on to that.

I don't see how changing the type of ladder is going to make hanging on to one any more or less safe.

If you tried to do that you most likely will end up taking the swim platform or ladder in the head, chest, nuts, .....

On boats like the Garloo/Wahoo, Canned Air, and others with swim platforms, that platform can/will be moving up and down 2 or 3 feet from wave crest to trough in rough seas. Add in a bit of cross sea or chop from the tide or wind and the boat will also rock, In that case, the bottom of the ladder may be moving in an arc of over 3 to 5+ feet. With the two movements, pitch and rocking, you will not be able to tie anything onto them. Ladders and swim platforms demand respect and you never, ever hang around them for any period of time when in the water.

The most dangerous period of a dive is at the surface at entry and exit, be it a beach or a boat.

 

[lowviz]

Diver hanging onto tag line properly waiting his turn (shamelessly stolen from Down too long in the midnight sea… ) These are 2-3' seas, rather nice conditions for here. The red tuna ball is as far out as anyone with a functional brain will ever go. The line you can barely see is what you don't want to miss. I'll get an U/W pix of the ladder next time I'm in something rough. Really neat bubble trails come out of the rungs. Reminds me of an underwater chainsaw. -then somebody can tell me how to clip to it... Sorry, Lynne. (I'm done with the hijack, -maybe even go back to lurking like I promised.)

 

[diver 85]

Yes, happens here a lot. Continuing String's explanation, you want fins on immediately after falling off in rough seas so you can quickly clear the ladder and get set for your next timed grab.

We also have surface current and a lot of the wrecks are in two major and very active shipping lanes. If you can't swim to the tag line before you pass the float, the captain has a serious and immediate safety issue. Best case, you get a pissed off mate on a second line as your rescue swimmer. -can't always get to you in time. If not, then courtesy dictates you give the boat a giant double-handed "O" for "I'm OK, -just going for a long walk to see if a container ship can turn me into a chum streak." The mate will start emptying water bottles and tossing them over ever 5 minutes or so. When all the divers are up, everybody gets to follow the bread crumbs to see if you can be found. If this happens before everyone's last dive, you may not want to be found. Sorry, the captain is way more right than wrong. I don't like his ladder, but local conditions make him right for what he is using. and btw, if I was adrift out here I would much rather have the captain who is getting bashed come look for me than have Emily Post take a stab at it.

Come to the GOM, we'll teach ya'll how to do it.......

 

[RJP]

All my boat dives have been in warm water destinations

WHY would going up a ladder with fins EVER be a good idea?

Um, in places where the water is cold, and choppy, and there's current, and the boat is tied-in. In such places imagine falling off the ladder and needing to get back to the ladder with no fins on... in a dry suit, wearing doubles 119's, with a sling bottle, a catch bag, a reel, a can light, etc.

On our boat you leave your fins on until you've boarded, then we remove them for you and get you back to your spot. However we do have a custom designed T-ladder that's purpose-built for this.

Of course, some will tell you that they prefer to take their fins off regardless of ladder type, but I assure you that in the type of diving we do off NJ, and the gear we use, and the conditions we have, you'll pretty much need/want your fins on.