Cheap Bastard Divers

[ReefHound]

If you read back, I did not start out with the premise that everyone should buy their gear new. I had said that some gear is better bought new due to warranty considerations.

My reasons for adding the fact that I had bought a few items used and forgotten that I had was just to show, that at times, depending on the item and price, good deals can be available.

You never qualified your initial statement on buying used gear as "some gear" so don't question my reading comprehension. You used absolutes like "never" having bought "any" gear used because of service and warranty. If you forgot a few items, no big deal but don't blame us for that. We can only respond to what you say, not what you meant to say.

 

[bfw]

You don't know me, so you have absolutely no idea of my ability to negotiate a deal!

While your characterization of your (and by implied extension, other people's) ability to derive any value from the used dive gear market speaks volumes about you and your ability to negotiate a deal, I suppose your right, since I really shouldn't draw any conclusions based on anything you say, after you categorically stated you'd bought nothing used, and subsequently started reciting a growing list of exceptions.
However, if your characterization is in fact honest, it speaks volumes.

You’re the one who needs to start reading because I never had thesis to begin with!

"For the record......."

All I stated was that due to warranty considerations, some gear is best bought new with the warranty still intact and that with the price of repairing old gear out of warranty plus the cost most folks want for their old gear, it usually isn’t really much of a deal!

And that is a patently false assertion, UNLESS one is a lousy shopper. That's the sour grapes rationalization of someone who doesn't know how to work the street.
There's nothing wrong with that - SOMEONE'S got to pay retail and fill the front end of the pipeline, after all, but then you shouldn't make such broad generalizations in the face of so many other people whose success proves your statements wrong.

Let me lay it out for you:

The used buyers are saying there are bargains to be had.

Your statement, as outlined immediately above, BY YOU, amounts to a denial that real bargains can be had. It's a blanket exclusion. If even ONE person got a real bargain (and several have posted here that they have) your statement falls apart.
All they have to do is offer ONE counterexample, and, in fact, YOU have offered two.

Tanks and wetsuits are not usually repaired and rarely come with any sort of warranty! Unless they fail on the first use, you really don’t have much recourse from the retailer or the manufacturer.

And if you take ten minutes to peruse one of the ubiquitous "LDS v. LP" threads on this forum, you'll see that, even with other pieces of gear, you really don't effectively have much recourse. Just ask any of the people who had "Lifetime" warranties on their Dacor regulators - fat lot of good it did them. Maybe everyone doesn't NEED such recourse - don't project your own level of mechanical and technological skill on everyone else - a regulator is one of the most dirt-simple mechanisms there is.

Oh really! It may not be quite as low as they got it for, but me having that bit of knowledge sure helped me get a considerably better deal than I would have if I hadn’t had it! For example, here they try to jack up the price by several thousand on the basis that it costs them more to get it here. It doesn’t but they like you to think that. Since I knew better, I wasn’t biting.

Irrelevant. You just revealed that you really don't understand negotiation. There's only one thing that matters in a negotiation - which party is more willing to walk away, period. You could walk in there with a mountain of data, and if the dealer knew someone else was likely to walk in later that day that was willing to pay his asking price, he'd tell you where you could stick your information. If you knew that nobody was willing to pay more than you were, and turning you down meant he wouldn't sell the car for six more months, you wouldn't need to know squat about the "invoice." The only piece of information that helps you is knowing what day of the month he has to pay interest to the bank if he doesn't sell the car, and how far away that day is.

Yes, they may have made a tidy profit. That’s the general assumption that one goes into to business for! Just because a business owner made a profit, doesn’t mean someone didn’t get a good deal when they purchased from them.

It means you didn't make the BEST deal. Talk to me when you've bought a house, and beat the seller down to where she had to run around town begging relatives and ex-relatives for money to come up with the thousands she had to pay at closing.

When you buy something secondhand, you don’t really know whether they made a profit on it either.

How are you really supposed to use that for a determination? I’ve known lots of folks who lived in nice places and had nice things that they took care of while they abused the hell out of their vehicles!

Clearly, you don't know what aspects of their lives and belongings to look for.

Furthermore, if the price was right, I’d consider 100 miles of abuse preferable to possibly 100K.

Just shows what you don't know about cars.

And when you buy second hand, you really have no idea of whether that car was abused at the dealer either.

That's why you don't buy used from a dealer.

Dude, when you don’t have the money and you need a car, what other option do you have?

You swallow your ego and find a car you can actually afford to buy, as opposed to rent from the bank. You buy a shop manual and a basic set of tools, and you get familiar with that little lever under the dash that unlatches the hood, maintain it yourself and save like crazy to upgrade when you get your NEXT car. The best car I ever owned cost me $300, had 244K miles when I bought it, and was 8 years younger than I was, and its performance never failed to make me smile.

It’s not like it’s not a depreciating asset when you buy it used!

Yeah, but I didn't say you should finance a used car anymore than a new one.

I may have paid more because I financed it than I would if I had had the money, but I got a stellar credit score out of it that will allow me to easily buy a house in a tight credit market when the bottom of the slump hits here.

Sure, but on the other hand, resolving to NEVER finance a car left me where I can buy a second house, BEFORE the bottom hits, without giving two hoots what my credit score is. I have to say, the single best financial legacy my parents could have given me was an allergy to debt.

And I got a stellar car! I’m happy!

That's great, I'm happy for you, but don't go making blanket statements about what's possible based on the limitations you personally have encountered and accepted.

How is that poor consumer advice? Because I’ve financed a thing or two over my adult life? What American hasn’t?

And THAT is a big part of why our economy is currently in the trash can. Just because most Americans think credit is a money tree doesn't make it right. Just because most people refuse to live within their means doesn't make that a GOOD thing.

Considering that, at the time, 4 year old Hondas were selling here, on the open market for only $4K less than the new ones, and I paid $5K less on this car than the dealer wanted from me, I think I got a hell of a deal.

I’m going to drive it ‘til the wheels fall off and can’t be put back on anymore!

That's something I can get behind. If you do that, you should have it long after it's paid off. If you keep making the payments anyway, except to a fund for your NEXT car, you'll eventually get to experience what I'm talking about.

Happened to me twice, both not my fault – both times the other drivers were uninsured, so I wanted a car that would at least have some value that I could recoup a little something through insurance to buy the next one!

Right there you hit part of what I'm talking about. Not financing, I don't need anything but liability coverage. 12 cars in 22 years, two totaled, one stolen and stripped, and I'm STILL ahead of what I would have paid in collision and comprehensive premiums.

Personally, I felt that the time it would take me scrounging around forever trying to find the ultimate best deal out there was not time I wanted to spend. My time has value too!

Again, that's a function of know how. You've probably spend more time posting here than I've spent finding and closing the deals on all 12 cars.

You may think I am niave, but you really don’t me or what I know.

You've been wearing what you know or don't know on your sleeve.

And I have better things to do than sit on a BB with some schmuck who likes to twist people’s words to try to make themselves look superior!

It's not about anyone's superiority - it's about your projection. Just because you couldn't make it work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work. Did it ever occur to you that you'd be better off if, instead of shouting over and over that something can't be done, you'd try to gain a better understanding of how those you're shouting at are actually managing to DO it?

 

[MeiLing]

Whatever! If you lived here you likely wouldn't be able to afford a cemetary plot, let alone a FIRST house.

You want to spend your days working on old cars, that's your business. I'd rather spend my time working the second job I worked to afford my new car and my new dive gear. I spent enough time under the hood of my Dad’s cars as a child and teen to last me a lifetime. I also realized that my Dad spent so much time trying to save money that he never had time enough to enjoy the money he did save. You can’t take it all with you! I don’t enjoy working on cars. I never did! I never will! I enjoyed my second job much more than I will ever enjoy working on cars!

Our economy is not in the trash can because folks have borrowed money. It's in the trash can, because our laws allow people to borrow money and then walk away from their debts when they get in over their head! If folks weren’t allowed to walk away from their debts they might think twice about their borrowing practices and only tend to borrow what they can afford to repay as I have! Furthermore, our government allows businesses to do the same!

Here in Hawaii, without collision coverage you're pretty much screwed. Makes a big difference in a place where something like 60% of drivers without insurance, let alone a license! Both cars I had didn't have much value left in them. Less than $3K apiece. Both were over 10 years old. In both cases, I could have driven each of them for at least 5 more years and had planned to, if they hadn't been a total loss. I had a roommate who opted to carry collision on his car with a high deductible. The same day he decided to sell the car to save money, someone (uninsured driver) hit the car while it was parked in the driveway. Over the life of his ownership (several years) he have done better paying for the collision coverage. I think he got all of $75 from the insurance company!

I never said that everyone should buy their gear new or that no one should by their gear second hand. I merely stated from my viewpoint I had bought mine new for reason of warranty. However, I also got a really fair price. Here’s what I said.

For the record, I have never bought any gear second hand. The reason being is that doing so voids the warranty. Given that a second hand set of gear will most likely need to be checked out and over-hauled after a purchase, it doesn't really make sense to do so. Would cost pretty much about the same, assuming the new stuff is reasonably priced in the first place.

So, I forgot to mention that there where a few used items I over-looked. One’s that wouldn’t have come with a warranty in the first place. Still doesn’t mean that I was stating some sort of thesis or absolute as you imply and feel the need to make some sort of federal case out of.

I also never shouted over anybody on whether or not it could be done. I stated something for folks to consider! You’re the one who keeps shouting and making attacks on what I know and my shopping abilities. Considering that you don’t know any of the prices I’ve paid for what I bought new or my ability to negotiate, why do you think that I would lend credence to your knowledge is beyond me. :mooner: Maybe if you’d stop shouting you’d learn that most of my NEW gear, I paid far less than what most used gear is going for. For instance, the last NEW regulator I bought, I paid $160 for with warranty (That’s $119 less than ScubaToys). However, I’d have paid a lot more because it is a “wet” breather and I happen to like “wet” breathers while the industry is getting away from them!

However, I happen to know the industry and how and where to get deals on gear!

For everyone else on this thread, seek the best deal that works for you. Know the pitfalls of buying either way. Shop around. And if anyone calls you a “cheap bastard”, know it’s just because you just beat 'em the game they’re trying to play!

 

[ReefHound]

Can we quit talking about cars now?

 

[bfw]

Whatever! If you lived here you likely wouldn't be able to afford a cemetary plot, let alone a FIRST house.

Now who's making assumptions about whom?

I also realized that my Dad spent so much time trying to save money that he never had time enough to enjoy the money he did save.

I'm not your father; I enjoy aplenty. I don't like fixing cars either, but then, I don't spend much time doing it. If you're spending too much time on a task, you need to be better at that task.

Our economy is not in the trash can because folks have borrowed money. It's in the trash can, because our laws allow people to borrow money and then walk away from their debts when they get in over their head!

Now that's just a ridiculous statement. What shall we do, make them slaves, sell their children to slaughterhouses, cut off their hands? They aren't walking away, either they're losing their collateral, assuming they have any equity. Yes, our economy is absolutely wrecked because we are a nation of debt monkeys. Car dealers don't even tell you the actual price any more, just the monthly payment. Everyone is living beyond their means, in hock up to their eyeballs. It's not what you can afford; it's what your banker says you can afford, and he has a vested interest in you overpaying. Most Americans never get out of debt their entire lives - they go their graves making the minimum monthly payment, and never putting away a dime of savings.

I also never shouted over anybody on whether or not it could be done.

You made several ignorant statements about the used market that all boiled down to any benefits being an illusion.

Considering that you don’t know any of the prices I’ve paid for what I bought new or my ability to negotiate, why do you think that I would lend credence to your knowledge is beyond me.

Simple - it's a question of results, and you've spoken freely about the results of your shopping in the mistaken impression that they represented a stellar success.

For instance, the last NEW regulator I bought, I paid $160 for with warranty However, I’d have paid a lot more because it is a “wet” breather and I happen to like “wet” breathers while the industry is getting away from them!

That's supposed to impress me? I like 'em wet, too, and I got FOUR, for $149 for the first two and $130 for the second two, and my fifth one I got used, in just as good condition, for $50.

However, I happen to know the industry and how and where to get deals on gear!

Yeah, sure, whatever you say.

For everyone else on this thread, seek the best deal that works for you. Know the pitfalls of buying either way. Shop around. And if anyone calls you a “cheap bastard”, know it’s just because you just beat 'em the game they’re trying to play!

Now THAT is something I can get behind. Beats the heck out of a "For the record" generalization followed by furious backpedaling.

 

[Anti-Hero]

Some really nice, functional gear I've bought, just happened to be relatively cheap. For instance: The EDGE stealth BC. For a recreational BC, I love it. It has no cumber bun, it's not cluttered with D-rings, it's a true back inflate, it's light weight, it's got 2 cam bands, etc., etc.

Not all gear has to be top-of-the-line priced, to be high-quality.

 

[Ann Marie]

Hey all! I'd rather not have to get a Moderator in here to keep the peace. Please let's keep this thread on track and respectfull to each other, even if we disagree.

Thanks!​

 

[bfw]

Hey all! I'd rather not have to get a Moderator in here to keep the peace. Please let's keep this thread on track and respectfull to each other, even if we disagree.​

It's just a spirited discussion. I don't hear Lisa crying, and I'm certainly not. Economics is a passion filled subject.
​

 

[Jasonmh]

... Do you teach them to tell time underwater? Is the use of a watch different underwater than on the surface? When you have them calculate their max depth are you using a different formula and different time for every diver that you have in your class?

Generally, in an OW class, the teacher has the group calculate the max depth and and max time for the group...

Whew... can't believe we are debating the need for a timekeeping device on a dive. If students are taught to plan dives by depth and time, doesn't it make sense for them to have a way to tell both depth and time underwater? Having a watch back in the car or boat doesn't help them underwater.
The watch I use was $6 at walmart, someone who says they can't afford a waterproof watch has more problems than being labled a cheap bastard I guess.

 

[MeiLing]

Now that's just a ridiculous statement. What shall we do, make them slaves, sell their children to slaughterhouses, cut off their hands? They aren't walking away, either they're losing their collateral, assuming they have any equity. Yes, our economy is absolutely wrecked because we are a nation of debt monkeys. Car dealers don't even tell you the actual price any more, just the monthly payment. Everyone is living beyond their means, in hock up to their eyeballs. It's not what you can afford; it's what your banker says you can afford, and he has a vested interest in you overpaying. Most Americans never get out of debt their entire lives - they go their graves making the minimum monthly payment, and never putting away a dime of savings.
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Oh really! Your attitude is just part of the problem! Blame the bankers! That's good! Like those who borrowed were blameless in the situation. Complete and utter lack of personal responsibility! That's the underlying, bottom-line reason behind why our country is in the toilet on way too many levels! And it has created a whole country of over-privileged whiners who think someone else is supposed to step in and solve all their problems!

I may have borrowed more money than I should have at times, worked harder than I would've if I hadn't, but I never spent one second blaming someone else for my situation because of it. I've paid it all off and I have so much more because I did. I have the experiences I've gotten, the things I bought and an attitude of "Can Do" that most of the folks I know haven't got a clue about how to get!

We don't have folks in this country claiming bankruptcy once in their lifetime! We have people doing it multiple times! There are way to many who use it as a tool to overspend and then have their slate wiped clean for as little as $1,600. That's just ridiculous, IMO. If they had to bust their ass to repay the better part of their debt on a repayment plan, they'd think twice about it! Currently, we have a bankruptcy system where one's slate is wiped clean sooner by declaring bankruptcy than those who seek credit counseling and pay off the majority of their debt.

Go find a high school economics text. Look up "supply and demand." If there was no demand, there'd be no need for a supply!

If buying second hand gear with no warranty is your thing! Do so! If having a warranty and buying something new at a price that works for you is! Have at it! Just know what the pros and cons are! There is no one right way in life to do anything! There's multiple ways and ones that work better for some than others. Find the way that works best for you and enjoy your purchase!

If you didn't get the best price you felt you could've the first time around, you got the experience to use on the next! For me, I'd still rather buy new for most items than run the risk of not having a warranty or the availability of an upgrade program that some manufacturers offer on computers. It works for me and I NEVER made any statement that it was the only way. I merely presented an issue that for me, and possibly other consumers, may be considered a con!

If you, BFW, think that's backsliding, so be it! I never made any recommendation that it was the only way or even the best way to buy gear. I merely forgot that because of the price, the immaculate condition of the items, and the lack of a warranty on these items when new, that I had indeed bought a few used items. However, the majority of my gear was bought new, at prices far less than my retailer would've liked. Furthermore, I'd do the same again, because, from a customer standpoint, he was the finest example of a full-service retailer I've ever encountered. He's not in business any longer, simply because, after 25 years, he wanted to do something different. I've yet to find another LDS who comes close to providing an environment that motivates me to the point of anything approaching loyalty. And my items were warranteed. Furthermore, let me state clearly and unequivocally, for the record BFW, that I don't really give a damn about what you can or can't behind!