Cheap Bastard Divers

[Tigerman]

Don't shoot me BUT!

I think when It comes to anything we all look for a better deal. I don't know anyone who walks in to buy a car looks at the tag and says ok I will pay that right here, without asking for a few bucks lower or ( the best deal) or some sort of perks. I agree sometime you see thing in an LDS and say 50 bucks for a piece of plastic. Ok so you have a right to say no i won't pay it or yes I will, but to stand there and say I am being ripped off is kinda silly. Some things are cheaper than other and remember the old saying....You get what you paid for. I am a drummer and to say i have spent 7000.00 on drums well i have. Wood and metal to smash and bang up. Sometimes people just complain to here themselves. You just can't get away from it all the time no matter what sport or recreational vice you choose.

Last time I went into a car dealer I went back out having left an offer 10% under what they where asking. Those 10% was the cost to get the car registered to me. The reason I left the offer that was 10% lower was basically that if Id bought the car from a privat owner (it was a very well maintained used car that was traded in), I would have gotten it 15-17% cheaper and the price offer i left was what the cars appraisal would be. The shops tend to take care of small snags and brush them up first, plus theres a law stating they have to give a used car warrenty that you wont get buying private. I basically paid a little extra for added security without paying too much more than I would elsewhere.
They didnt take it at first, so I just left them my number and told them to call me if they changed their mind. Which took about 30 minutes.
I love that car, except from the fact that deep blue metallic is FAR from fun trying to keep clean

 

[sssss]

I'm about to do my O/W certification dives next weekend, and can give some newbie perspective. There were only five of us in my class and we all did a little complaining about how much everything cost. It was mostly all good natured and served more to build community than to dissuade anyone from continuing. It's that sort of "We must be crazy to do this, but here we go!" kind of talk. We all have the cost of our new equipment in common to talk about.

For most of us, and definitely for me, the initial startup cost of scuba just doesn't compare with anything else we've done. I've never gone horseback riding or skiing, so I won't speak to those at all. But the minimum possible cost to start bike riding is really low - $50 - $100 for a used or WalMart bike and you're out riding. You might not impress anyone, and you're not as safe without a helmet, but you can do it. Golf and hunting are similar. You can start off with little money - the minimum possible cost is fairly low. You CAN, of course, spend gobs of money at Cabellas or on a carbon fiber bicycle, but you don't HAVE to.

Scuba can cost less than what I've spent on it, but it may be harder to see that as a new diver. The LDS where I took the class is great, but they've done a few things that make me question my long term loyalty. The class requires using equipment from the shop, and there was some 'confusion' about what we would need. The initial cost estimates I got from them did not turn out to be very realistic. We found out during the second-to-last class that for the checkout dive we would also need a logbook from the shop, a knife, gloves and a watch (and maybe something else I can't remember). I consider these new, surprise expenses that are beyond what I was told when signing up for the class. I haven't bought everything from the shop, but there is a sense that I should hide that fact. Others have gotten some equipment elsewhere, and though the instructor doesn't seem to care, we talk about it quietly.

So, there's some legitimate complaining about LDS practices that seem a little shady. There's some shock at getting into a sport that's more expensive to startup than we're used to. And there's some good natured bitching to talk ourselves through the expenses and to get to know each other. That's my experience so far anyway.

 

[realdiver7]

I would be very careful about buying anything from a shop that came up with "new, surprise expenses" at the second-to-last class, especially when you are required to buy those items directly from that shop. Lack of early notification may have been an oversight on the part of the instructor, but I have never heard of a knife, gloves and timing device being required for an O/W course. You should be made aware of all expenses when you sign up for any course.

It appears that according to PADI, a timing device is recommended for O/W training dives, but a knife is not usually required until the Rescue Diver course (or possibly some specialty courses), and I have never heard of gloves or dive logs being required even though you should log your dives for your records. Some items are needed and should be bought using common sense (good gloves for cold water diving, a good knife for entanglement hazards, log book for logging dives, etc.), but you should be able to buy those items anywhere you want.

I advise divers to take their time, do market research, compare final LDS, Ebay and Scubaboard, etc. sales prices, and buy the most reasonably priced, highest quality gear they can afford. I would find an LDS I could trust (this takes time until you know the industry), give them first shot at selling gear to you, and then shop around for comparisons. Make sure you buy gear you can get serviced locally, which is very important. You will have a lot of industry hype and bull to wade through, but dive gear, including servicing gear, is not rocket science as some will have you to believe. I like to support my LDS whenever possible, but I will not let them screw me on prices or customer service. You are right on the mark by not bragging about buying from places other than your LDS, as you need to keep a good working relationship with them that should last for years. Work this to your advantage and don't burn any bridges. You can find LDS vs. online threads everywhere on this board, so I won't get involved further in that discussion here.

Your initial cash outlay can be somewhat expensive for diving when compared to some other sports, but just be aware of this when you get in to diving, and buy gear that will outlast you if cared for properly.

 

[MeiLing]

All that should be required for OW, is a mask, fins and a snorkel and a log book. I don't even think that you, yourself need a timing device for your classes. After all, shouldn't your instructor be there with you every moment of that dive and controlling your dive time?

It also shouldn't matter where those three items came from or their quality. If they work for you, so be it. I dove my OW and AOW classes in a pair of cheap, closed foot fins and a cheap, rubber mask and snorkel set that was a kids set. Sure I got flak about it, but hey they worked and I wasn't about to outlay a whole bunch of money for a sport I wasn't sure I was going to continue in.

I will say one thing about the mask. Life isn't going to be very pleasant if your mask doesn't fit. Nothing more annoying than a leaky mask. Could even make the difference for one deciding they like the sport or not. Whatever mask you use, make sure it fits.

Part of the reason I hung onto that cheap mask, was that it fit! I have a really small face and am very hard to fit for a mask. When I finally decided to shell out for a mask, I tried on every mask in the store. I don't just mean trying it on in the store, I mean dove with each one. My LDS had a policy with regards to masks that they would let you do so, as long as you brought it back in like new condition so it could be rinsed and put back on the shelf.

I must have tried 25 masks. Eventually, they sent me, with someone from the shop, to the distributor to find something. In the end, I did find something and also, down the road, a back up. However, that cheap mask, fins and snorkel set is still in my dive bag. The mask even goes with me on trips.

Hey, when your're as hard as me to fit for a mask, a backup for your backup is needed! Also, as they search for a mask went on, the flak that I got about my cheap one diminished. However, I always did keep my reputation with the dive shop owner of being the shopper from hell! And we became good friends in the long run!

Should you decide to pursue the sport on the occasional tourist basis, I would invest in a good mask, fins and snorkel and possibly a wetsuit. Beyond that, it becomes a question of cost feasibility.

 

[offthewall1]

To err is human... to complain is more human... to hear divers errantly complain is to be expected.

Are divers cheap? some are - some are not. It's the ones who are that are diving marginally safe gear bought from Ebay or models that have been sitting in a warehouse from the likes of Leisurepro for years.

The non-cheap divers buy top quality gear from great dealers (be they on-line or local.) They pay a little more for current, first quality goods from people who stand behind what they sell and are there to assist them with their purchases.

I usually ask people who have a problem with their gear where they bought it - and almost inevidably they bought it second hand or from Leisurepro. When they ask me to help them with their problem, I politely explain that I don't touch inferior gear and that they got what they paid for.

 

[MeiLing]

To err is human... to complain is more human... to hear divers errantly complain is to be expected.

Are divers cheap? some are - some are not. It's the ones who are that are diving marginally safe gear bought from Ebay or models that have been sitting in a warehouse from the likes of Leisurepro for years.

The non-cheap divers buy top quality gear from great dealers (be they on-line or local.) They pay a little more for current, first quality goods from people who stand behind what they sell and are there to assist them with their purchases.

I usually ask people who have a problem with their gear where they bought it - and almost inevidably they bought it second hand or from Leisurepro. When they ask me to help them with their problem, I politely explain that I don't touch inferior gear and that they got what they paid for.

And that kind of attitude would not entice me to spend money where you worked. Better would be to tell that if they are going to buy second hand gear, it needs to be serviced before using. After they've spent the money to have that gear serviced, they'd likely understand that they didn't get as much of deal as they thought.

If the gear was bought elsewhere, as a shop owner, I'd work on for a fee.

A good business owner doesn't engage in habits that don't create good will for their business.

As LeisurePro is one of the biggest sellers of gear out there, I would hardly think that what they sell is inferior! That, IMO, is a myth being perpetuated by a bunch of whining, 'sour grapes' dive shops who don't have the business sense to know how to function in today's market.

 

[RJP]

. I don't even think that you, yourself need a timing device for your classes.

Each diver needs their own depth gauge and timing device.

 

[MeiLing]

Each diver needs their own depth gauge and timing device.

Gee, I didn't have one for my OW classes and neither did anyone else in my class. Yes, everyone does need a depth guage but if you are all going down with the instructor for a pre-ordained amount of time in an OW class, it is just BS nickel and diming the customer to tell them it is required in that class.

After an OW class, yes, you do need a timing device.

Furthermore, the shop I was certified in probably certified at least 10,000 OW students in the 20 years it was in business and never required each OW student to have their own timing device.

Perhaps that title of this thread should be changed from "Cheap Bastard Divers" to "We'll Screw You If We Can, LDS'"

 

[sssss]

I may have miscommunicated a little. The shop isn't checking receipts for our gear or anything like that. I bought the gloves and log book there, the watch from Amazon, and the knife from an online shop. They definitely want the BC, regulator, tank to be from their shop. And they rent those in a package for the certification dives. I totally understand that the instructors require equipment they know and trust for their students.

The confusion came in because it was always implied that we would need the personal gear and could rent "everything else." I'm sure if I had followed up and gotten a full list from the instructor and compared it to the rental package I could have known earlier that "everything else" didn't mean what I thought it did. I'll have NAUI and SSI certifications if that makes a difference in what is required.

And I will say that many of the employees at the shop are wonderful. Friendly, full of advice, willing to let me try on stuff in the pool, etc. One even suggested (though in a whisper) a different store that sold a different brand of wetsuit when I couldn't find one there that fit well. And I'm moving in a month anyway, so I don't really need to decide if they are the best place for me to shop for all of my gear.

I didn't mean to stir the LDS vs. other sources pot. More on topic, I feel like this LDS did some things that created doubt in my mind (and my classmates') about whether they saw us as new friends and customers, or as wallets to coax cash from. It may be that some employees see me as a potential friend and others see me as income. That doubt, though, contributes to the complaints about cost. If you're thinking in the back of your mind that "maybe this gear doesn't have to cost this much" or worse: "maybe this is a scam", that's likely to lead to complaints about prices. If you're thinking "it's great that the staff is so helpful and I can try out all this stuff to make sure it fits" then you're not as likely to complain.

I think this is a really interesting thread about the dynamics of shopping - which I've been thinking about a lot recently.

 

[MeiLing]

I may have miscommunicated a little. The shop isn't checking receipts for our gear or anything like that. I bought the gloves and log book there, the watch from Amazon, and the knife from an online shop. They definitely want the BC, regulator, tank to be from their shop. And they rent those in a package for the certification dives. I totally understand that the instructors require equipment they know and trust for their students.

The confusion came in because it was always implied that we would need the personal gear and could rent "everything else." I'm sure if I had followed up and gotten a full list from the instructor and compared it to the rental package I could have known earlier that "everything else" didn't mean what I thought it did. I'll have NAUI and SSI certifications if that makes a difference in what is required.

And I will say that many of the employees at the shop are wonderful. Friendly, full of advice, willing to let me try on stuff in the pool, etc. One even suggested (though in a whisper) a different store that sold a different brand of wetsuit when I couldn't find one there that fit well. And I'm moving in a month anyway, so I don't really need to decide if they are the best place for me to shop for all of my gear.

I didn't mean to stir the LDS vs. other sources pot. More on topic, I feel like this LDS did some things that created doubt in my mind (and my classmates') about whether they saw us as new friends and customers, or as wallets to coax cash from. It may be that some employees see me as a potential friend and others see me as income. That doubt, though, contributes to the complaints about cost. If you're thinking in the back of your mind that "maybe this gear doesn't have to cost this much" or worse: "maybe this is a scam", that's likely to lead to complaints about prices. If you're thinking "it's great that the staff is so helpful and I can try out all this stuff to make sure it fits" then you're not as likely to complain.

I think this is a really interesting thread about the dynamics of shopping - which I've been thinking about a lot recently.

Did they charge you additional rent for the BCD and regulator in your OW class? If so, it is a money making scam. The shop I came out of, included it in their OW package. Also, when certifying you also get a small (25 dive) logbook. So there is no need to buy an additional one for the class.

For an OW class, there really is no need for gloves or a knife. It's just another ploy to get you to drop more money, which they hope you'll spend in their store.

When it comes to recreational regs and BCD's, there really isn't much difference between all the brands that a shop isn't going to readily be able handle a variation. In fact, most shops, if they've been in business for a while, have quite the assortment themselves. A shop that only sells one brand of gear and has only that brand of gear in their rental, is likely a new shop that only has a contract with that company.

The big players in the industry don't play ball with just anyone who decides they want to call themselves an LDS.