Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

If anyone comes to me wanting a cave class and they have a cavern card from anyone other than someone I know and trust have done an excellent cavern course I do an evaluation dive with them. I can generally bet if its a card from NACD or NSS-CDS the cavern diver will be ready for a cave class. The operative word here is "generally".

I will call out a PADI cavern instructor as quickly as any other. PADI is not evaluating my admission into their course director ranks based upon what I say here.

PADI is not putting out better cavern divers in the past eight months and I am not pandering to the PADI cavern diver program. Just the opposite, I think that if PADI thought I was posting here to gain their favor they would not be impressed and it would not change their minds as to whether or not I am worthy to be a course director.

My comments to you still stand and I am glad you are being vigilant in the evaluation of PADI cavern divers and cavern divers from every other agency that teaches every other diver program known to Aqua-Man.

I will not compromise my integrity, nor will the folks at PADI compromise their integrity when it comes to choosing whether or not I will represent them as a CD at some point in the future.

As an aside...I am sure getting a headache butting heads with you dude...

Jim, we know you're trying to become a Course Director for PADI, so, we're willing to give you some leeway. But I've spent the last 5 years by your side. And some things I just can't ignore.

Jim, I once came to you and said, "Dude, I'm getting all these PADI guys wanting to take Intro to Cave with PADI Cavern Cards. I haven't found a single one of them that would pass your Cavern Course, let alone mine. Nor would any of them be able to pass my Intro to Cave. You told me, "Unless they have a card from a PADI Instructor I know, who is a good cavern instructor, and probably a cave instructor with one of the more recognized agencies, they must do an evaluation dive with me". You then went on to say, unless those people passed class with a small handful of instructors (and lets face it, we know the instructors who teach for PADI AND a real cave agency) that we recognize, they almost NEVER were ready for your Intro to Cave without a lot of remedial work.

So, is PADI putting in better cavern divers in the last 8 months, or is it just coincidence that they got better right about the time you took a bigger role in PADI Leadership?

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 05:57 PM ----------



That's interesting, seeing as how I had a QA filed against me and my agency for something I said about a NSS-CDS instructor.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 05:58 PM ----------

Say what you will about Jon Kieren, but one thing CANNOT BE DENIED.

He's got a hot wife.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am certified to teach the PADI cavern course, but living in Colorado, I really don't have much of an opportunity to use that certification. As a Cavern instructor only, I can't take a student past that level. A little over a year ago, a student I had taught in other classes asked if I would teach a cavern class for him. I asked him why he wanted that certification. He said he wanted to go the full cave route eventually. I told him I would not teach him cavern, because I thought his cavern instructor should be someone who has the capacity to go beyond that and will have that higher level in mind. We ended up driving to Florida together, where he worked on Cavern and then intro while I pursued other goals. I figure that as a PADI cavern instructor, my role is to teach people who are interested in diving caverns safely. If they become interested in going beyond that as a result, that's fine. But if they know from the start that they want to go all the way through cave, then I am going to tell them to go to someone who can do that job.

 

[GDI]

International Cave Awareness Responsibility and Education (I.C.A.R.E.) (Just brainstorming and a sharing a thought here, what do you think?)

The mission of this non-profit inter-agency organization is to preserve, conserve and protect underwater caves around the world. I.C.A.R.E. will be able to work in conjunction with other similar projects such as PADI's Project AWARE, Jill Heinerth's Into The Planet, We Are Water, Dr Silvia Earl's MIssion Blue to name a few. It's focus will be to promote better cave/rn diver quality instruction and education, skills proficiency, environmental safety and damage awareness, exploration and scientific research relating to cave structure and fauna protection, preservation and conservation.

It is my hope that the cave/rn training agencies will become involved and act as collective administrators to this worthy cause, a possible working group task for the Cave Instructors Task Force. Agencies such as NACD, NSS-CDS, TDI, IANTD, ANDI, CMAS, PASI, UTD, GUE NAUI, CDAA, BCG, PADI, SSI, SDI, SSND, ACUC, BSAC (to name a few) are asked to participate by collecting funds dedicated to this sole purpose or to allot funds from their current programs. Money from these agencies will be used for the protection of caves found regionally within their scope of interest. Where possible inter-agency participation can lead to greater impact to protect caves perhaps effecting laws at the local, regional and federal levels of government.

I will ask that each cave/rn instructor support this cause by having students sign and agree to a Conservation Agreement similar to the attached document used by the NACD. Bring this to the attention of your supporting agency. That each cave/rn training agency provide a means of student voluntary donation to receive monies as part of the certification process and allocate funds to the mission of I.C.A.R.E.

As the President of the NACD BoD I will present this to the NACD at our next BoD meeting in April. I invite members from NSS-CDS , GUE and any other agency, person or organization of a similar cause and mindset to attend.

 

[Aotus]

i think an evaluation dive is a fair request by any cavern/cave instructor before getting started with formal training. In fact, unless you're familiar with their previous instructor, it makes more sense to me to go for a demonstration of core skills (or those that were necessary at the previous level) before any class. I would bet that would motivate some to stay fresh on some of those skills. My training buddy and I were practicing all the skills we thought could've been better after Intro on a nearly weekly basis, in pools, OW, and in the caves for months, before we scheduled our Apprentice class. Then we met to really iron them out for a couple days together right before class began. We weren't going into an evaluation dive, but we treated the whole course like an evaluation of new AND OLD skills.

 

[ucfdiver]

International Cave Awareness Responsibility and Education (I.C.A.R.E.) (Just brainstorming and a sharing a thought here, what do you think?)

The mission of this non-profit inter-agency organization is to preserve, conserve and protect underwater caves around the world. I.C.A.R.E. will be able to work in conjunction with other similar projects such as PADI's Project AWARE, Jill Heinerth's Into The Planet, We Are Water, Dr Silvia Earl's MIssion Blue to name a few. It's focus will be to promote better cave/rn diver quality instruction and education, skills proficiency, environmental safety and damage awareness, exploration and scientific research relating to cave structure and fauna protection, preservation and conservation.

It is my hope that the cave/rn training agencies will become involved and act as collective administrators to this worthy cause, a possible working group task for the Cave Instructors Task Force. Agencies such as NACD, NSS-CDS, TDI, IANTD, ANDI, CMAS, PASI, UTD, GUE NAUI, CDAA, BCG, PADI, SSI, SDI, SSND, ACUC, BSAC (to name a few) are asked to participate by collecting funds dedicated to this sole purpose or to allot funds from their current programs. Money from these agencies will be used for the protection of caves found regionally within their scope of interest. Where possible inter-agency participation can lead to greater impact to protect caves perhaps effecting laws at the local, regional and federal levels of government.

I will ask that each cave/rn instructor support this cause by having students sign and agree to a Conservation Agreement similar to the attached document used by the NACD. Bring this to the attention of your supporting agency. That each cave/rn training agency provide a means of student voluntary donation to receive monies as part of the certification process and allocate funds to the mission of I.C.A.R.E.

As the President of the NACD BoD I will present this to the NACD at our next BoD meeting in April. I invite members from NSS-CDS , GUE and any other agency, person or organization of a similar cause and mindset to attend.

Wait, so you want to charge the students an additional certification fee because your agency stopped policing it's self?

The conservation agreement is fine and dandy, but given that one is signed by every NACD cave diver, and something similar has to be signed to dive Cow, is this REALLY effective of is it just lip service?

I would also have concern with the NACD running this, given that it wasn't that long ago their name was synonymous with corruption, and they have not cleaned their own house in regards to bad instructors.

 

[GDI]

Wait, so you want to charge the students an additional certification fee because your agency stopped policing it's self?

The conservation agreement is fine and dandy, but given that one is signed by every NACD cave diver, and something similar has to be signed to dive Cow, is this REALLY effective of is it just lip service?

I would also have concern with the NACD running this, given that it wasn't that long ago their name was synonymous with corruption, and they have not cleaned their own house in regards to bad instructors.

Apparently you didn't read the post.

It is asking that a "Voluntary Donation" is considered to be made, nothing about a fee to be added to the cost of certification, this is a agency thing to consider. Further it is asking that each agency set up their own system to collect these monies or allocate monies from already existing programs, no where does it say that the NACD is running the entire show. It is also saying that inter-agency cooperation where and when possible be used with the intent that we can work together to achieve desired results. Being that each agency has a geographical location and relationship it would be their program for their systems.

The conservation document is a method of drawing awareness to the issue, is it effective?. Funny thing how social media has an impact on people to bring attention to a cause. Having people sign a document of understanding re-enforces the concept. There is much to be done. However, ask PADI why they revised their OW program in recent years. Did social media play a role?

As for the NACD cleaning it's own house of bad instructors, that is part of my job as president. I fully well remember the past situations, Information has been gathered, lessons have been noted, corrections being made.

You can chose to lead, follow or get out of the way

---------- Post added March 24th, 2015 at 10:34 AM ----------

i think an evaluation dive is a fair request by any cavern/cave instructor before getting started with formal training. In fact, unless you're familiar with their previous instructor, it makes more sense to me to go for a demonstration of core skills (or those that were necessary at the previous level) before any class. I would bet that would motivate some to stay fresh on some of those skills. My training buddy and I were practicing all the skills we thought could've been better after Intro on a nearly weekly basis, in pools, OW, and in the caves for months, before we scheduled our Apprentice class. Then we met to really iron them out for a couple days together right before class began. We weren't going into an evaluation dive, but we treated the whole course like an evaluation of new AND OLD skills.

An eval dive should be done any time you are working with a new student prior to entering the overhead. This starts with talking to them before getting into the water, Attitude is a big part of cave diving.

A re-eval should be done when you have students that you have trained before but know they are not close to any cave system to practice skills. This helps remove any bad habits that may have crept in away from any sort of mentoring you may be willing to provide or again not being close to a cave system to dive.

Tom Mount once said something in the nature of; A diver not having proximity to a cave system can keep skills sharp by simply practicing them on every dive possible even if only lacking the actual overhead. Simulation if you will. He would rather work with a returning student having done this than a student who having the proximity to caves failed to work on perfecting their skills.

Skill fade is a reality. If you do not use it or work to perfect it then you will lose it.

 

[Doppler]

Many years ago I endured a spell working for a group of newspapers as an editorial writer: something I had zero experience at since I'd worked as advertising copywriter to that point in my life. But I bull****ted my way into the job shielded by bravado, a flashy portfolio, and enthusiasm fueled by desperation.

After a week or two of reading my "pieces," the group managing editor decided he should explain one of the fundamentals of my new job.

He told me that I was the voice of the community, and part of my community role was to pick holes in and throw rocks at whatever issues I felt (and our readers told us) damaged established community standards. He said I was good at picking holes and throwing stones. BUT he told me my work was missing something important. "DO NOT criticize something in a public forum," he said, "unless you have a solution to offer that will go at least half-way to fixing the problem."

I still find it easy to criticize and hard to supply answers and solutions. But it seems to me that going round and round in friggin' circles picking holes in this and that agency does nothing but waste time.

The NACD Cave Conservation Policy is nothing new, that's true, but it's a timely reminder of something basic that seems to have been either forgotten or ignored. And we are all guilty of being complacent about **** like this. Perhaps a little kick in the collective arse is good once in a while. Tighten up. Next time you see some poor schmuck in a cave looking stressed, out of place, and clueless help them instead of sending out invitations to a lynch party.

 

[kwinter]

But I bull****ted my way into the job shielded by bravado, a flashy portfolio, and enthusiasm fueled by desperation.

Hard to imagine.....

 

[The Chairman]

But I bull****ted my way into the job shielded by bravado, a flashy portfolio, and enthusiasm fueled by desperation.

Hard to imagine.....

I was thinking more like, "Well, at least he's consistent!"

 

[karstdvr]

I will ask that each cave/rn instructor support this cause by having students sign and agree to a Conservation Agreement similar to the attached document used by the NACD. Bring this to the attention of your supporting agency. That each cave/rn training agency provide a means of student voluntary donation to receive monies as part of the certification process and allocate funds to the mission of I.C.A.R.E.

As the President of the NACD BoD I will present this to the NACD at our next BoD meeting in April. I invite members from NSS-CDS , GUE and any other agency, person or organization of a similar cause and mindset to attend.

I would like to applaud you for this move,but some considerations if you'd please. One thing is that most cave divers are reticent about cave conservation, and when looking at the mission of the agencies of training, safety, and conservation, it ranks at the lowest, if even a twitch. I did a survey with the results published in UWS and from the sample size I found that overall conservation training may fall in the category of inadequate, many respondents would quantify if as 15 to 30 minutes. Cave conservation falls off the radar screen for most cave divers because of how much respect it is ingrained in the entry level course(s), not from a signed statement that the CDS, and NACD will present.
#1 Cave conservation needs to mixed in with all aspects of training to have any relevance for a lasting lesson. The cave conservation lecture is typically covered,but unless all post-dive briefings show some relevance to cave conservation ie you grabbed a rock when out of trim, which had an impact on the cave etc, then cave conservation is irrelevant.
#2 Cave conservation information that provides more detail on the ecosystem that makes up the cave, and impact from poor adherence to technique needs to appear in the training material that can be carried away.
#3 I don't intend to belittle the instructors because they do their job of training, but very few can identify what they are seeing in the cave, and a basic understanding of the cave ecosystem. I think to impart knowledge to a student so they share a regard for conservation, the student needs to hear more than "don't",but understand what it is, and what the effect is. What is goethite, and why it is delicate and can't be touched. What is silt, and why disturbing silt will have an impact on species that live in the cave. etc.

I give credit to the CDS and NACD for making efforts in the area of cave conservation, where many other training agencies give it a footnote. This is becoming a more of an important issue than we regard, and our future access to sites will be governed by conservation and cave preservation. There are some land owners that have serious concern for the condition of the cave systems, and comments that are made publically of cave damage. The way to reduce cave damage is to reduce access, and limit the numbers of people accessing a system-this is reality,if we don't do something.

One last thing. There have a few cases of cave vandalism, one just recently with the broken whale vertebra at Ginnie. Some great people stepped forward and fixed it, and well documented the activity for future presentation. My disappointment was the response from the agency's leadership. If you want to impart a concern for cave conservation/preservation then this act was an abomination and the agencies regard for this act should have been a huge disdain with vocalized concern. The cave conservation committees of each agency played a part,but like I said the leadership really needs to step forward and respond to that fact a law in the state of Florida was broken. I have been a member of the NACD and CDS for 20 years, and I have the highest respect for the organizations,but if we don't show concern for a problem,it won't filter downward, and people will disregard it.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2015 at 06:27 AM ----------