Cave Training and Etiquette Real or Imaginary?

[ucfdiver]

What my opinion is of a "bad" instructor includes but not limited to:

• Allowing students to kneel on the bottom
• Allowing students to go vertical in the cave
• Not making students master line handling/reel running
• Not making students master negotiating high flow
• Allowing students to flutter kick vs modified flutter kick & frog kick

Those are the main things I can think of that are signs of poor instruction. There are other symptoms such as not having philosophical discussions about the responsibilities of cave divers to themselves, their buddies, the cave diving community their families, and land owners. I have long believed & taught cave diving is a 70% mental and 30% physical activity.

We cannot fire an instructor for these things simply because we believe them to be true, or have heard that they are true. It is a Due Process issue that we are bound to adhere to. This has been discussed at length in other places here.

Jim, even with video, is anything in your list a direct violation of standards? I would be worried that if an instructor were removed for the items you mention that it could result in a lawsuit. HOA's have this issue all the time, where they write their by-laws vague with the intention of being able to flexibly enforce them.
Associations seeking to enforce vague covenants must show how covenant was violated

 

[kensuf]

Question, do most people feel if all the agencies published their standards would the problems brought up by the OP, and other people on this thread go away? Would we see an improvement in the quality of the diver, and instruction? A search of other forums will show this discussion comes up frequently, and we see more organizations publish their standards, but the threads regarding substandard instruction and diver quality are more prevalent now.

No.

I did a co-teach with an instructor that did not break any standards. I thought the course was completely sub-par, and it would not have been one I would have been proud to sign as an instructor.

 

[ucfdiver]

No.

I did a co-teach with an instructor that did not break any standards. I thought the course was completely sub-par, and it would not have been one I would have been proud to sign as an instructor.

Did the students get cave cards at the end of it?

 

[kensuf]

Your opinion is of course respected. I agree there are are couple of bad apples in the NACD & NSS-CDS instructor corps. Going through the list in my mind and on the respective instructor lists I only count about five.

I believe that overall there are more than I can count from the ranks of the others.

This is not meant to be an attack vic. It is an observation and an opinion I have formed over several years of watching the degradation of cave divers ability to cave dive the way we taught it from the mid 70's when I started teaching cave diving to the present day embarrassment....

Jim, respectfully, that's a numbers game. When an agency only has 20 or 30 instructors, five bad apples is 1/4th to 1/6th of the instructor pool. The other agencies just have more instructors, which is probably why they have a higher raw number of bad instructors. I remember seeing a post on FB from Steve Gerrard who gave a head count of somewhere north of 60 cave instructors in the Tulum area from IANTD, TDI, NAUI, etc.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 10:29 AM ----------

Chris, I don't think I've ever seen a PADI Cavern class being conducted. Ever.

Go to Ginnie Springs, look for the big trailers from SC/NC/VA/GA. You'll see them.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 10:33 AM ----------

Did the students get cave cards at the end of it?

Yes, and was promptly signed up for Apprentice.

 

[Superlyte27]

I don't think we have ever met. But if you were with a basket case of 4 divers who were attempting to sidemount with a stage in JB back last fall then yeah. I brought it up to someone I saw there as I was afraid they were going to kill themselves in a different cave. I was told they had been full cave for over 25 years and there was nothing they could do. After this and seeing how you were treated over the Ginnie oog incident I quit caring. If people who are in a position to actually do something such as at least have a conversation with the crappy divers and tell them that golf might be a better hobby isn't going to do anything then why should I care as I have no authority. I just take my boat and go dive the river caves mostly now. There is a lot less drama and fewer idiots to deal with.

Nope, I wasn't in JB. But I'm told it was the same team as the guys in the OOG incident.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

QA Complaint against me by TDI

Today I received a QA complaint against me filed by TDI. I have attached that complaint in the .PDF document. I am not a TDI instructor and find it odd they would take such action, which is pointless. Clearly I am not allowed to express anything but "the TDI party line" if I should ever want to reinstate as a TDI instructor.

Also today three of us from the NSS-CDS training committee ran day one of a full cave instructor institute for the CDS. The candidate is a Cave instructor with TDI, and an intro instructor with the NACD. He told us it was easier to become a TDI cave instructor than it was to become an NACD intro to cave instructor. He also told us that only one TDI instructor trainer evaluated him in the process.

He is being evaluated by at least five different NSS-CDS instructors and has co-taught four different classes. He applied to be an NSS-CDS instructor in March of 2014.

View attachment Jim Wyatt QA notification file.pdf

 

[Superlyte27]

I really don't know any PADI cavern instructors and do not see them teaching PADI cavern classes. I have accepted a few PADI cavern certified divers into my cave programs and most of them were adequately prepared.

Jim, we know you're trying to become a Course Director for PADI, so, we're willing to give you some leeway. But I've spent the last 5 years by your side. And some things I just can't ignore.

Jim, I once came to you and said, "Dude, I'm getting all these PADI guys wanting to take Intro to Cave with PADI Cavern Cards. I haven't found a single one of them that would pass your Cavern Course, let alone mine. Nor would any of them be able to pass my Intro to Cave. You told me, "Unless they have a card from a PADI Instructor I know, who is a good cavern instructor, and probably a cave instructor with one of the more recognized agencies, they must do an evaluation dive with me". You then went on to say, unless those people passed class with a small handful of instructors (and lets face it, we know the instructors who teach for PADI AND a real cave agency) that we recognize, they almost NEVER were ready for your Intro to Cave without a lot of remedial work.

So, is PADI putting in better cavern divers in the last 8 months, or is it just coincidence that they got better right about the time you took a bigger role in PADI Leadership?

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 05:57 PM ----------

Today I received a QA complaint against me filed by TDI. I have attached that complaint in the .PDF document. I am not a TDI instructor and find it odd they would take such action, which is pointless. Clearly I am not allowed to express anything but "the TDI party line" if I should ever want to reinstate as a TDI instructor.

Also today three of us from the NSS-CDS training committee ran day one of a full cave instructor institute for the CDS. The candidate is a Cave instructor with TDI, and an intro instructor with the NACD. He told us it was easier to become a TDI cave instructor than it was to become a TDI cave instructor. he also told us that only one TDI instructor trainer evaluated him in the process.

He is being evaluated by at least five different NSS-CDS instructors and has co-taught four different classes. He applied to be an NSS-CDS instructor in March of 2014.

View attachment 205249

That's interesting, seeing as how I had a QA filed against me and my agency for something I said about a NSS-CDS instructor.

---------- Post added March 23rd, 2015 at 05:58 PM ----------

Say what you will about Jon Kieren, but one thing CANNOT BE DENIED.

He's got a hot wife.

 

[cerich]

If agencies are getting what prove to be unfounded allegations of violations of standards the member who reports such allegations should be automatically subjected to an ethics investigation and if it is indeed proven that the report was spurious, vindictive or in short a lie, the reporting person should lose their membership.

This is interesting in light of the TDI letter Jim posted.

 

[The Chairman]

This is interesting in light of the TDI letter Jim posted.

Unwarranted critical comment and deliberate inflammatory statements of diving
peers is inappropriate and undesirable.

I wonder if Brian got a similar citation for his unwarranted critical comments and deliberate inflammatory statements about PADI before DEMA last year? He sets the example for the rest of his agency.

https://www.tdisdi.com/2014-letter-by-brian/

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/sc...sonal-perspective-diving-industry-netdoc.html

It's unfortunate when people and even agencies try to bully people into not speaking their minds with threats, veiled or obvious. It would be far, far better to listen to the criticisms and actually change for the better. Set a precedent of being fair and reasonable. People will respect you far more when that's the case.

 

[ucfdiver]

It's awesome that TDI reads this thread and has zero comments on how to improve it, but fires off a warning to an instructor who's participating in the discussion.