Cave gear and light recommendations needed

[STIDVC]

glad to hear your mentality is good. A lot of people doing zero to hero only have their goal in mind and wouldn’t call the class if overwhelmed. I personally Dove at the cavern level for a year before moving on then a year between cave 1 and 2. That time between classes allowed me to hone skills before moving on and were invaluable to me. I currently have over 200 cave dives and still learn something regularly and get more comfortable every dive.

At first I knew the cave courses were hard and brutal but I failed to realise that the leap between cavern and cave was so drastic that it garnered such a reaction from the community.

From all the comments, concern and doubt over here I will be treading extremely lightly, I won't say that I'll fully give up on the aspects of the full cave but the moment I am feeling overwhelmed I would call it. In the event that everything was smooth sailing I'd still doubt I would be comfortable going all the way in. IMHO I got a feeling I would call it at the begining of the full cave course.

 

[STIDVC]

I think you'll be far better off doing cavern+intro and spending whatever remains of your planned trip getting some more experience. Don6 and a few others disagree, but I think there's a ton of value taking your initial overhead training on open circuit as it gives a far better sense of your own mortality. If I could play training director, I'd mandate 100 intro or cave1 level dives before opening full cave/cave2 to students. Some people come into cavern and intro truly having their stuff squared, but I bet that's 1/1000 (or should be; most instructors allow **** to slide under the rug).

I would not have the peanuts to go right up to CCR, doing the full cave is already disconcerting enough let alone the CCR bit.

I've heard of plenty reckless rec instructors and some Tec ones but haven't heard of many cave instructors doing so. I always believed that due to the high risk and deep technical skills involved that this was a course no one fooled around. I seem to be wrong.. hmm.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I won't say that I am a seasoned technical diver, I am currently on TEC45 with about 100 dives since certification from 40. I see your on the huge leap forward and have my own personal concerns regarding totally new environments + a ton of new skills to learn and develop. Although I have my reservations, I am very cautious of not pushing beyond my limits and would consider putting pause on the course and do more cavern dives for experience in the event that I do not feel too confident or comfortable.

Im glad I posted this here as the feedback from all of you is invaluable. I was not aware that going all the way to full cave was considered to be that hardcore, I knew it was a big leap but didn't expect that it was that extreme. Cheers!

Zero to hero does have it's place. I don't normally recommend it, but there are certain instances where extremely skilled and highly accomplished ocean divers could tackle a zero to hero and come out on the other end a respectable cave diver. There are some instances where 'travel' or 'time off of work' could play a part. I knew a very experienced diver who was going to be sent abroad for work for 18-24 months, he did the zero to hero; but he was a diver with over 1000 wreck dives who still dove while abroad, just couldn't 'cave dive'. For 99% of the diving population, zero to hero doesn't make sense.

Game it out. You do 10 days of cave course Zero to Hero. You eventually need to go back to a cave area to do trip of full cave dives, you have a card but not real experience. Other alternative, break it up 5 days NAUI Cave 1, have some fun experience dives after class. Next trip, finish full cave (Cave 2). Diving is a long road. It's not a one and done experience like doing a tandem skydive on a Saturday afternoon. In the above examples you have spent the same amount of time cave diving, but in one, you have taken a full course load, have all the cards, and no experience; in the other, you have all the cards, have taken a more manageable course load, and have actual real world experience by the time you are done.

I am not going to fully address the CCR course, but 10 days of Cave training and then 4 days of CCR class for a diver that only have 100 tech dives is WAY too much new stuff combined. It's almost like a first grader planning their college courses--you could say it is an 'outline' of their future and it is good, but in truth the plan can't survive contact with reality. Pick one: Cave training or CCR training (I would pick cave).

Was the same instructor going to be used for both cave and CCR courses? It is difficult online. I don't know you, you don't know me, I don't know where you plan on doing training, or the instructor. If the same instructor was offering ten day cave and four day CCR course, I would find a new instructor immediately. That is a complete lack of judgment and common sense of their part and I would not trust any part of their instruction; they are looking for money and will hand out cards.

NOTE: I wrote the above and some additional comments were made. I am going to keep the above, but if I am mistaken about some of the circumstances than it may appear my tone is a little too harsh. I apologize if I am mistaken about some of the circumstances.

STIDVC-There seems to be a slight communication breakdown, partially caused by the fact that you have 'rebreather pilot' on your avatar. You are currently an OW tech diver who has PADI Tec 45 and maybe 100 OW tech dive. You have no CCR experience apart from a couple of try dives? Correct?

You were planning on traveling to Thailand for 14 consecutive days of class--10 Zero to Hero and 4 CCR days. When you say you will 'wait for CCR in cave'. You are saying you plan to be an Ocean CCR diver, but will dive open circuit in the caves?

 

[macado]

I suppose If the op is really going from cavern to cave-CCR in 14 days, maybe he should just bite the bullet and buy a 300m, >$1,000 can light.

but I don’t think the “buy once, cry once” logic holds true for the majority of divers setting out to gear up for cavern/intro training.
1-I have seen many of “those” divers sporting $1,000+ can lights but still rocking a zoop, or yoke regs, when they are easily 100 dives away from being competent enough for a 3hr plus deco dive,
2-In 12 months, a new series of “best in class” lights may be out, so why not wait?
3-there are several good lights out there that will make a great cavern/intro primary, and can become back ups in 6-12 months when you actually (may) need that $1,000 light.
4-Lets not forget about the life cycle and replacement cost of batteries. Most of the new “best in class” can lights have non user serviceable batteries. And sitting around, unused isn’t great for them. Both the Big Blue, and the DR LX20/HP50 use Panasonic 18650s that are darn cheap to replace, or even carry a spare set.

Buy Smart! ...Cry Less!,

These are all good points to consider. Perhaps I am just making a broad assumption here since the OP already owns a rebreather then they probably realize that technical diving and cave diving in particular is not a cheap endeavor. I use a can light for 90% of my dives in New England, not just cave diving. It is a piece of my standard kit, not strictly just for cave diving for me. Granted this may be overkill for divers in warm and clear water who don't need a ~5 hour runtime on their primary light

I can't speak on their experience level or what not but like others I don't agree with a zero-to-hero mentality in cave diving. I do think getting some experience at the intro/apprentice level is very valuable. Perhaps the OP takes their cave class and decides that cave diving is not for them. It's rare but it happens.. Would a good primary light be a waste of money if it's something they can use with their other types of diving?

I do however like having the good burntime of a canister light for a variety of reasons. One is not being limited by battery life of my primary light if I'm doing multiple dives a day or if am not in a position where I can charge my light at the end of a day of diving.

Limiting factors on a rebreather when cave diving are obviously going to be bailout constraints, scrubber time, exposure temperatures/experience level and of course battery runtime. I'm sure I missed some things.

I do think a lot of people that have the mentality of waiting for the "next best thing" on the market is what stops people from buying the latest rebreather or canister light because they're always waiting for something better to be on the market. If you start with that mindset then you'll almost always be waiting for something better. Most previous generation lights work just fine.

It's why I think some used lights or older generation lights can be a good trade-off. There are people that get aggressively into diving for about 12-24 months, buy all the expensive and fancy toys and then decide to sell off all their gear in a giant fire sale when they move onto the next hobby or phase of their life.

 

[STIDVC]

Zero to hero does have it's place. I don't normally recommend it, but there are certain instances where extremely skilled and highly accomplished ocean divers could tackle a zero to hero and come out on the other end a respectable cave diver. There are some instances where 'travel' or 'time off of work' could play a part. I knew a very experienced diver who was going to be sent abroad for work for 18-24 months, he did the zero to hero; but he was a diver with over 1000 wreck dives who still dove while abroad, just couldn't 'cave dive'. For 99% of the diving population, zero to hero doesn't make sense.

Game it out. You do 10 days of cave course Zero to Hero. You eventually need to go back to a cave area to do trip of full cave dives, you have a card but not real experience. Other alternative, break it up 5 days NAUI Cave 1, have some fun experience dives after class. Next trip, finish full cave (Cave 2). Diving is a long road. It's not a one and done experience like doing a tandem skydive on a Saturday afternoon. In the above examples you have spent the same amount of time cave diving, but in one, you have taken a full course load, have all the cards, and no experience; in the other, you have all the cards, have taken a more manageable course load, and have actual real world experience by the time you are done.

I am not going to fully address the CCR course, but 10 days of Cave training and then 4 days of CCR class for a diver that only have 100 tech dives is WAY too much new stuff combined. It's almost like a first grader planning their college courses--you could say it is an 'outline' of their future and it is good, but in truth the plan can't survive contact with reality. Pick one: Cave training or CCR training (I would pick cave).

Was the same instructor going to be used for both cave and CCR courses? It is difficult online. I don't know you, you don't know me, I don't know where you plan on doing training, or the instructor. If the same instructor was offering ten day cave and four day CCR course, I would find a new instructor immediately. That is a complete lack of judgment and common sense of their part and I would not trust any part of their instruction; they are looking for money and will hand out cards.

NOTE: I wrote the above and some additional comments were made. I am going to keep the above, but if I am mistaken about some of the circumstances than it may appear my tone is a little too harsh. I apologize if I am mistaken about some of the circumstances.

STIDVC-There seems to be a slight communication breakdown, partially caused by the fact that you have 'rebreather pilot' on your avatar. You are currently an OW tech diver who has PADI Tec 45 and maybe 100 OW tech dive. You have no CCR experience apart from a couple of try dives? Correct?

You were planning on traveling to Thailand for 14 consecutive days of class--10 Zero to Hero and 4 CCR days. When you say you will 'wait for CCR in cave'. You are saying you plan to be an Ocean CCR diver, but will dive open circuit in the caves?

There was some details left out on my original post as I did not expect the severity of the case in hand at the time. It was all explained and the rationale has changed since the first post was made.

Just to clarify I have CCR certified with my own unit, my 100 Tec dives was from a tec40 cert to 45 which could also be omitted as I don't really see tec40 as proper Tec dives (about 70 diveswdives done post 45). Before the Tec 40 I clocked approximately 350 dives on regular depth ranging from 20~40. Apologies for working backwards here.

In regards to the last bit, I intend to do a 10 day cavern to full cave course. The CCR won't come into play whatsoever or anytime in the near future as I am still pretty new to the CCR world. I did however mention that I was given the option to do the full blown thing from cavern>intro>cave>CCR cave. Hope this clarifies things and nah any harsh comments are always taken into consideration as cave diving is not where one rushes into things. I failed to realise the extreme leap from cavern to full cave and that was a failure on my end As I mentioned.

Cheers

 

[STIDVC]

These are all good points to consider. Perhaps I am just making a broad assumption here since the OP already owns a rebreather then they probably realize that technical diving and cave diving in particular is not a cheap endeavor. I use a can light for 90% of my dives in New England, not just cave diving. It is a piece of my standard kit, not strictly just for cave diving for me. Granted this may be overkill for divers in warm and clear water who don't need a ~5 hour runtime on their primary light

I can't speak on their experience level or what not but like others I don't agree with a zero-to-hero mentality in cave diving. I do think getting some experience at the intro/apprentice level is very valuable. Perhaps the OP takes their cave class and decides that cave diving is not for them. It's rare but it happens.. Would a good primary light be a waste of money if it's something they can use with their other types of diving?

I do however like having the good burntime of a canister light for a variety of reasons. One is not being limited by battery life of my primary light if I'm doing multiple dives a day or if am not in a position where I can charge my light at the end of a day of diving.

Limiting factors on a rebreather when cave diving are obviously going to be bailout constraints, scrubber time, exposure temperatures/experience level and of course battery runtime. I'm sure I missed some things.

I do think a lot of people that have the mentality of waiting for the "next best thing" on the market is what stops people from buying the latest rebreather or canister light because they're always waiting for something better to be on the market. If you start with that mindset then you'll almost always be waiting for something better. Most previous generation lights work just fine.

It's why I think some used lights or older generation lights can be a good trade-off. There are people that get aggressively into diving for about 12-24 months, buy all the expensive and fancy toys and then decide to sell off all their gear in a giant fire sale when they move onto the next hobby or phase of their life.

I did not perceive the aforementioned as zero to hero until I read several posts within this thread. The real funny part is I do not condone this after seeing many doing the OW>Instructor jump but to my dismay, it's basically what I am doing right now which was not evident to me before the post hence I am currently re-evaluating my options.

From my first post I did mention I knew next to nothing about caving (in fact I thought intro to cave was similar to the try rebresther courses). Negligent ? Yes. Enthusiastic and overeager? Also yes.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

It’s an excellent light. I had their 12 watt when I started cave diving but I found it not quite bright enough for me. So a year later I purchased the 32 watt. Super happy with its light output and burn time

 

[rddvet]

One other thing to think about: I know of several people trained in thailand that did zero to hero (only one finished as planned), but it seems zero to hero is a common recommendation in the Thai cave community, whereas it's very rare elsewhere. I don't know anything about their caves, so I don't know if their caves are only simpole navigation or what. But I do find it odd that zero to hero is more common there than elsewhere. I would talk to your instructor as to why that is. If their caves are just straight solution tunnels with no side passages, jumps, or complex navigation, then that training may not set you up for safe caving elsewhere. I was trained in florida, but by instructors who had experience in Mexico and who knew I planned to travel to mexico. My training prepared me for all of my cave diving in florida, mexico, and france. I really haven't had any confusion diving in other countries except that things in France are very different than other places. They have alot of line issues and people constantly changing lines. They also have lots of sumps which I never experienced in the US or Mexico. But my training prepared me for all of it, and I just used a local instructor in France as my source of information, He was able to prepare me for the oddities I encountered there. Maybe talk to your instructor about your concerns as well as how he feels Thai training will or won't prepare you for diving elsewhere.
Again, I think what I've read from you shows that you're not the typical zero to hero candidate who is balls to the wall about finishing no matter what. That's a good thing.

 

[Norwegian Cave Diver]

How can you say this?

You should be aware that many of the people who will give you advice are far from unbiased. Not that their opinions are invalid, but they are either supporting themselves by selling gear, or get sweet “keyman” pricing for themselves by pumping up certain brands to new divers.

 

[kensuf]

Hey lads, i'm planning on doing my cavern, intro to caves and full cave next year and was thinking of getting a new light. After some scratching on the surface i came across the Light Monkey 15-32 VF LED with a 300m burn time. I was wondering what are the opinion of cave vets here for a complete newbie?

IMO, the price of the light is outrageous but have read that many people standby their products, hence, i'd like to know some of your views on this.

Also, if anyone would like to provide some pointers in terms of skills or cave gear recommendations i would be really appreciative. Best review/recommendations gets a cookie

Cheers!

I got to beta test this light before it ever went into production and I bought the very first one that came off the assembly line. It's a great light, if your plan is to do full cave, it'll serve you well.

I also own a Halcyon Focus 2.0. It's also a great light, quite a bit different than any other LED light I've ever owned.

I would normally say "you can't go wrong with a well cared for used 21w HID", but I had a student recently get burned on one. So, I won't recommend that path now.