Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[ginti]

What stuck with me was something that @rddvet said about transitioning to CCR, he said he spent a year working his way back up to the same level of diving as he did when he was OC.

Not a rebreather diver, but I was considering switching to a rebreather (trimix is way too expensive!). When I spoke with some instructors, they mentioned the "1 year" to return to my previous level. But they implicitly mean that it should be a year of very intense diving: some to keep a high level in OC and a lot with the rebreather (I assume 50 CC dives or something in this range minimum)... it definitely takes energy and time

 

[Germie]

Again most people talk in time. Not in amount of dives or hours under water. Does a diver be a little bit more than average gifted with diving a ccr? Does a diver do a lot of practising things or only do just fundives? This also can be a big difference.
Yes, if people ask me about time, I will also mention a period and amount of dives, but also mention the things that can slow down or make the possibility of progress faster.
And there are really divers that will dive a ccr like they did oc. They do it really easy. And there are divers that even after 2 years are not able to control the unit. The given hours by an agency are most times the bare minimum. But it can be done by some divers. And some divers will even not be able after 4 times the minimum amount of dives.
This makes answering a question about 'how much experience?' hard. You dont'want to have accidents, but you also want to hold divers motivated and be realistic.

 

[cerich]

Again most people talk in time. Not in amount of dives or hours under water. Does a diver be a little bit more than average gifted with diving a ccr? Does a diver do a lot of practising things or only do just fundives? This also can be a big difference.
Yes, if people ask me about time, I will also mention a period and amount of dives, but also mention the things that can slow down or make the possibility of progress faster.
And there are really divers that will dive a ccr like they did oc. They do it really easy. And there are divers that even after 2 years are not able to control the unit. The given hours by an agency are most times the bare minimum. But it can be done by some divers. And some divers will even not be able after 4 times the minimum amount of dives.

the whole years argument is silly, and to a lessor degree is time underwater or dive #'s depending. CCR time is one thing, but there is value in set up/break down , entry, exit experience in making a diver. OC or CCR, varied conditions versus same conditions. Going fast in same conditions zero to hero can make a fairly competent diver in those conditions when done right, but the diver will then often struggle in a big way with different conditions. Individual aspects such as in water comfort and confidence to avoid panic are not directly tied to c cards, dive #, hours or years either... just saying
regardless, almost every long time cave diver that has been doing it for years and thousand dives plus have moments along the way that scare the crap outa them. Some folks don't survive those moments to get to the years and thousand plus dive milestone, and all else being equal, luck or fate can and does play a role.
I don't think that the accident in discussion is some wild outside the bell curve incident either IRL with regards "too fast too far" in practice among many, many divers at the level of the divers involved here, it's just one that ended in the worse way.
I believe that the general lack of a really clear definition and norms with regards "sidemount configuration" and "sidemount for tight spots" in the broader industry and in cave instruction and agency standards/training material is more behind this incident than "too far too fast" which while I believe based on what heard and know is likely contributory but less weighted than the "what is sidemount" issue. Both of these systemic issues are more important than saying "they broke the rules" which is simplistic and only sets conditions it will happen again (and it will). What bearing if any their employment played a role as speculated on is background noise as far as I am concerned as well. I will say that some of the most insistent folks I know to go "too fast and too far" in tech and cave are experienced instructors. I could write a book about that.. maybe I should and completely piss off the entire industry and some people I have known for 30 years in the process.
I am truly saddened by this death, a very, very good person died, their buddy has trauma they will live with and some instructors are hurting as well as they review how and what they taught in their mind and ask themselves if they missed something (and I would be shocked if that was the case.. for a few reasons in this case). A friend that is closer to me than family had to do another recovery and while he is one tough dude, quantity has a quality of it's own and stuff accumulates.
I hope that maybe we as an industry, or their employer honours them by really digging in to all the human factors, systemic stuff that played a role here, but that's unlikely based on what I have observed for almost 30 years in the industry.
Me, well, every decade or so see the industry have to relearn the lessons we learned a decade prior is getting old.. I'm tired boss, I'm tired. I am sad that a young man I have only met a couple brief times who obviously had passion and potential is gone, that people are hurting. I can't fix it. I'm tired and just want to go diving, no students, no clients to guide, nothing but the water and the sound of my breathing to remind me that for all the challenges of making a career and being able to support my family in this crazy industry I still love the feeling of slipping below the surface and how lucky I have been. I would be lying if I didn't tell you that as I get older, and I contemplate what that means in many ways, that the "list" of friends and acquaintances that have passed diving is becoming a bit of an unbearable non ditchable weight that I am feeling a little too much. Having no former students on the list is something that I am grateful for but also a huge neon sign that maybe I should get while the getting in good and hang up teaching.. I likely won't however, when I don't teach for a few months, I feel like a huge part of me is missing..

For those reading who have no clue who I am, here is my linkedin

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-e-richardson-mstj-mba-75561345/


I am TDI/SDI/ERDI Instr #17, Instructor Trainer/evaluator and former Training Advisory member
Naui 17055, former Course Director, rep and NAUI BOD member, PADI MSDT 157937, ACUC 1049EA Advanced Instructor, Former member of the Recreational Scuba Training Council Board of Directors (RSTC). Quite frankly, very few in this industry have the depth and width of experience in as many aspects of the industry as I do, some of course are more expert in specific areas.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

I still struggle to understand why people continue to do highly risky cave diving (which arguably is the most risky of all sectors of recreational diving) when nobody has ever come back from a cave dive and said "wow that was a beautiful reef", or "those critters were amazing" or "what an awesome wreck" - but each to their own.

 

[kensuf]

This incident easily ranks up there as one of the more tragic ones that can happen, it's up there with the boyfriend / girlfriend that resulted in the use of gold line.

In addition, the family of the deceased is sitting Shiva. It's only common decency to wait a bit before some of the discussions.

A Practical Guide to Paying A Shiva Call - Wilf Campus

A one-page primer on how to comfort a mourner When one pays a shiva call, the focus is on comforting the mourners in their time of greatest grief. Traditionally, one enters the shiva house quietly with a small knock so as not to startle those inside. No one needs to greet visitors; they simply...

www.wilfcampus.org

 

[Manatee Diver]

when nobody has ever come back from a cave dive and said "wow that was a beautiful reef",

There aren't reefs in caves. But I have finished many cave dives and said "That is a beautiful section of cave."

 

[cerich]

This incident easily ranks up there as one of the more tragic ones that can happen, it's up there with the boyfriend / girlfriend that resulted in the use of gold line.

In addition, the family of the deceased is sitting Shiva. It's only common decency to wait a bit before some of the discussions.

A Practical Guide to Paying A Shiva Call - Wilf Campus

A one-page primer on how to comfort a mourner When one pays a shiva call, the focus is on comforting the mourners in their time of greatest grief. Traditionally, one enters the shiva house quietly with a small knock so as not to startle those inside. No one needs to greet visitors; they simply...

www.wilfcampus.org

Thanks Ken, did not know w/ regards Shiva, my apologies and thoughts with his loved ones and will refrain

 

[berndo]

I think it's important to do this earlier rather than later because someone could be reading this thread today or tomorrow and it could cause them to rethink a dive plan, especially one that involves going into a small restriction.

I'm not buying this at all and you probably don't either. Almost every time an accident happens people decent like vultures on these stories and get on their little soap boxes. I can hardly recall an accident were there was actually anything new to learn. They can be reminder and IMHO should be discussed but not the day or the week after.
Sometimes it feels like people want the 'scoop' and many seem to want this this for entertainment purposes. There are tons of accident reports out there and the same lessons are repeated over and over again. There is plenty to read already.

I truly don't think it was in their training where they were misled, they aren't instructors that I would question, but there is something in the community that I truly believe led to this and we've unfortunately seen it before.

The groups and cliques in cave diving usually form around a instructor. So if this is a 'community' issue it's an instructor issue too and people tend to put 'their' instructor on a pedestal. Saying it's community but not the instructors doesn't make a lot of sense.

the whole years argument is silly, and to a lessor degree is time underwater or dive #'s depending.

And how is experience supposed to be build unless it's over years? Some people do 3 or 4 dives and keep diving the same spots to rack up dives in order to claim a high dive count.
Years is definately a factor. There is only that much time in a day and most people have stuff to do other than diving too... a non-local wont get in that many real dives in a given year.
Dive days would probably a better metric than dives or hours.

 

[ofg-1]

@TBone is mostly correct.

If you are really interested in doing small stuff, I suggest joining a local NSS grotto and start doing some dry caving. There are techniques for squeezing through places, and in a dry cave, you don't drown. The entire idea of sidemount started with sump divers.

If you are unfamiliar with a passage, don't go in it. If your buddy is stupid enough to go, don't follow him. Its hard for one person to back up, two is a major clusterfark. A lot of the small stuff at JB are not on any map. Its not all in the front end of the system, there are small tunnels all through the cave that have had line put in them. Most systems have this, there are small tunnels in Peacock, Little River , Ginnie, Madison, its not uncommon.

Sidemount is a tool developed for certain applications, just like a rebreather. I started diving sidemount 20 plus years ago only because my knees were shot and I could not carry doubles into a sinkhole. Now its been marketed as a be all end all, its not.

No other pertinent info?
Being stuck doesn’t make you bail out and only breath one tank, my guy.
Super secret squirrel tunnel….ridiculous.

Not sure why you would bail out of a Sidewinder, but if you are stuck where you cannot reach one tank, then you have a problem. Speculation, but I can see that happening.

Also, as a member of a group that has worked for 20 years plus to keep most cave divers out of the Woodville Karst, sure you want to talk about super secret squirrel stuff?

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

I'm not buying this at all and you probably don't either. Almost every time an accident happens people decent like vultures on these stories and get on their little soap boxes. I can hardly recall an accident were there was actually anything new to learn. They can be reminder and IMHO should be discussed but not the day or the week after.
Sometimes it feels like people want the 'scoop' and many seem to want this this for entertainment purposes. There are tons of accident reports out there and the same lessons are repeated over and over again. There is plenty to read already.

If there is nothing new to learn then effectively cave diving fatalities are people repeating one or more of a collection of previous mistakes - which isn't smart. Is that a training issue or a human factors issue? And what needs to be done to break the cycle and prevent it happening over and over?