Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

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Let's try to keep this discussion around what made them think that going in that passage was a good idea to begin with
Tom, I think the problem is that about 5 people in this thread 1)know anything about the team (deceased or the buddy), 2) know where the incident took place in the cave. Still a lot of cryptic hinting going on here and not a lot of real info. I’m not surprised in any way by that, just as you shouldn’t be surprised about random speculation in the absence of data here on scubaboard.
Have the names been released publicly? Have NOK notifications been made? Till that happens, it’s fairly uncommon for pertinent info to be tossed about openly.
 
Tom, I think the problem is that about 5 people in this thread 1)know anything about the team (deceased or the buddy), 2) know where the incident took place in the cave. Still a lot of cryptic hinting going on here and not a lot of real info. I’m not surprised in any way by that, just as you shouldn’t be surprised about random speculation in the absence of data here on scubaboard.
Have the names been released publicly? Have NOK notifications been made? Till that happens, it’s fairly uncommon for pertinent info to be tossed about openly.
1-Obit is published now

2-the location is not on the map, nor should it be. It had a line in it, but does not always have one nor should it be in there. The JB map is really bad so it's hard to explain where it is but it's not worth mentioning.

Not much else in terms of pertinent info to happen. Guy had a Winnie the Pooh moment and thankfully unlike in the movie, Rabbit wasn't stuck in the hole behind him. Don't dive beyond your level of experience, and don't surround yourself with people that don't discourage you from diving beyond your level of experience.

Thankfully but unfortunately this one doesn't have a whole lot of speculation about what happened and is fairly cut and dry compared to most of the other fatalities that we have where there is a lot of speculation to be made about what happened but this one is all about why it happened and what we can do to prevent it because it isn't a training issue.
 
1-Obit is published now

2-the location is not on the map, nor should it be. It had a line in it, but does not always have one nor should it be in there. The JB map is really bad so it's hard to explain where it is but it's not worth mentioning.

Not much else in terms of pertinent info to happen. Guy had a Winnie the Pooh moment and thankfully unlike in the movie, Rabbit wasn't stuck in the hole behind him. Don't dive beyond your level of experience, and don't surround yourself with people that don't discourage you from diving beyond your level of experience.

Thankfully but unfortunately this one doesn't have a whole lot of speculation about what happened and is fairly cut and dry compared to most of the other fatalities that we have where there is a lot of speculation to be made about what happened but this one is all about why it happened and what we can do to prevent it because it isn't a training issue.
No other pertinent info?

Being stuck doesn’t make you bail out and only breath one tank, my guy.

Super secret squirrel tunnel….ridiculous.
 
Guy had a Winnie the Pooh moment and thankfully unlike in the movie, Rabbit wasn't stuck in the hole behind him. Don't dive beyond your level of experience, and don't surround yourself with people that don't discourage you from diving beyond your level of experience.
Maybe don't be so flippant? I'm all for talking about it but the way you're going about it comes across pretty callous.
After all, somebody just died and it's a major tragedy for friends and family. Imagine this had been your buddy or family member.
Apparently it wasn't so clear to the divers that they were in over their head.
 
Maybe don't be so flippant? I'm all for talking about it but the way you're going about it comes across pretty callous.
After all, somebody just died and it's a major tragedy for friends and family. Imagine this had been your buddy or family member.
Apparently it wasn't so clear to the divers that they were in over their head.
It is probably coming across that way and in no way is this a reflection on him as a person. Separating the person from the incident is something that I think is important because it helps to remove the emotions from the situation. I think it's important to do this earlier rather than later because someone could be reading this thread today or tomorrow and it could cause them to rethink a dive plan, especially one that involves going into a small restriction. I would want people to post all of those details as soon as possible to help prevent someone else from dying but the point is not "he went beyond his level of experience" with him being the individual, it's where did we as a community fail to cause this incident and what can we do to prevent it from happening to someone else. I'll be on the call for his service next week, he was a valuable member of this community and it's a tragedy that he is gone, but it doesn't mean that we can't take away something from this and try to be better as soon as possible.

The fact that it wasn't that clear to them is the problem and trying to figure out where we as a community misled them is where the true problem is. I truly don't think it was in their training where they were misled, they aren't instructors that I would question, but there is something in the community that I truly believe led to this and we've unfortunately seen it before.

@Manatee Diver there were a lot of divers there when it occurred and a huge amount of information was published almost in real time on facebook for this one which is abnormal.
 
I do not believe that number of years or number of dives since crossing over to SMCCR are relevant to this. Neither diver had sufficient SIDEMOUNT training to be going through this passage. There is a monumentally large gap between divers that dive in a sidemount configuration and those that are truly sidemount divers. Neither of these divers were even remotely qualified to be in a passage anywhere near that small regardless of their configuration, sure they both had full cave but neither of them were trained in true sidemount restrictions and it unfortunately showed today. I don't know if it's because the discussions about progressive penetration seem to only apply to length of passage vs. size of a restriction, if it's because we don't really talk about really tiny stuff, if it's because the surviving buddy was roughly the size of the deceased's left thigh and didn't have the experience to know that he wasn't going to fit, or what the real issue was but neither of them was even remotely close to being qualified to go through a restriction that small.
Let's try to keep this discussion around what made them think that going in that passage was a good idea to begin with because that's the root cause of this fatality and while it may not be entirely related to their general lack of years or number of dives, it has a lot to do with what was put in their heads that made them think they were ready to attempt something like that. I can guarantee you they didn't go through anything remotely like that in any class tied to any certification card they have. Those classes exist, they would not have been let into those classes yet.
THIS

I have been saying for about 15 years now that there is a LOT of issues around sidemount configuration versus sidemount for diving in restrictions and how as a industry/community we don't address them
.
Sidemount as a configuration is awesome for diving in general. Recreational or tech. It has some advantage and some disadvantages over BM doubles, and generally since about 15 years ago I made the switch to sidemount almost exclusively after doubles almost exclusively for the preceding 20 years.
That said, the majority of people that take a sidemount course (OC or CCR) are taking a configuration course that doesn't include the techniques, knowledge, skills etc of doing restrictions. In warmer climes I see lots of sidemount classes include holding alm 80's in front of you but that is not at all enough for truly dealing with restrictions, nor will it help a diver not diving light cylinders anyhow, as trying that with steel cylinders is likely to kill you in many cases in real life restrictions.
Sidemount configuration training seems to encourage some folks to be much more confident in going into tight spots when they have no business being there. I am going to say, as a guy that likes zero viz sidemount tight passage , is a cave instructor and cave evaluator (can certify new cave instructors) that the difference between an "easy" if silty and snug dive in a restriction and a "likely to spend some time hung up and not easy at all" is literally about 2" of difference and any gear change (Like OC vs CCR) takes me a dozen dives to really get a feeling for that. I have been where this diver died in SM OC and CCR Sidewinder and for me (big guy, smaller than victim) found it sporty and the instructor that put line in there (not Edd) was a moron to leave it there. It's a short scary section of passage that like many really low tight SM only passage in cave being right on the line will screw you which is totally counter to what most intro/cave 1 / full cave/cave 2 students have been taught and believe if never trained/exposed to tight stuff in real zero viz (and I will tell you that many cave divers have never been in real zero viz where you can't even see your primary light an inch from your mask)
This is sad.
 
I don't know that passage, but we speak about a tragic accident.
There are few things I see and where I think as outsider, why can you judge about this? Do you know ALL details? If you know all details and tell all details, then we can learn from it. But now it looks for me sometimes as there is blaming and shaming the victims (the one that survived is also a victim of course).
I read about too far too fast. Yes, that is easy from behind a computer to write. But is there an average too far too fast?

I read about some 'facts' about the time since they had done courses. Ok, maybe some time between or since sounds short. But do we know everything? Remember that we divers are human and we tend to look at the time since or time between certs. So if someone is diving for 10 years, we tend to think that this diver has experience enough to move to tech diving. If 500 dives are made, for sure most will say that seems to be enough experience, let's do a 'let us know eachother checkdive' to see how you are in the water.
If another diver has made the same amount of dives, 500, but only is 2 years certified, we tend to say no. Even if the same amount of experience is there, the same amount of harder more experienced divers, etc.
But if you don't know the time since starting diving, only the amount of dives, what do you say then?

If a diver goes to another instructor to make dreams come true, is the new instructor always bad? Do we know all the details? There is always a slowdown if you go to another instructor, who says the diver will not improve in that time?
If a diver was bad 3 moths ago, or not experienced enough, who decided or decides that the diver is now experienced enough? Maybe the diver did train and made 50 extra dives or so. If that 50 dives are made in 1 year, more people believe it.

Do we know if the restriction was the first dive after getting certified or maybe it was the 50th cavedive? Remember the diver was already full cave certified on oc. This means he could have already experience in cave diving. Then the rebreather is the only new thing in a cave. That is a big difference from seeing a cave for the first time. But an important question is, was the diver be able to control his ccr in a cave? From being certified you would say and expect yes. But the skills that you have mastered just one time are forgotten first when **** happens.

Was the diver more a natural and talented diver, or did he need to train to get at least the minimum level to pass a course? Being not talented, but have the believe you are great and talented can cause problems easier than the natural that does the same. The natural that slows down is probably the most 'perfect' person. But remember, we are all human, so we are different.

Is it possible that the restriction from 1 way is easier than the other way? So that you for example get in easier than get out? That people go in, but get in trouble when getting out?

I read about really zero viz. That is not a situation you will have often, but can this happen suddenly here?
Did the divers have experience with wrecks and had there zero viz? Also things that can be part of the 'experience' people already have that can be usefull, but is not directly cave related.

Are only people who live near caves able to get really experienced? At my diveclub there are instructors who only dive 20 times a year, and there are vacationcavedivers that make 50 cavedives a year. So who is making more experience?

And I read there was a line to this restriction? Why is there a line if this restriction is so tight? Maybe if there was no line to this restriction or passage, people with less experience won't go there?
Is the zero viz to be expected, or does this happen suddenly? We train cave divers with a blind mask most times. But remember, a blind mask does not have the same feeling as real zero viz. Where people get relaxed when using a blind mask, they get stress when they are in a real zero viz.

And remember, we are all human. And some humans like to do more adventurous things than others. If these divers are the ones that like to have adventures, do you really believe you can stop them? You can as instructor refuse or advice. And if you got refused by instructor one, maybe do the course with instructor 2 and say yes and Amen and do after the course different? Also this is human behaviour, and this can happen. People drive cars when they are drunk, even if they know this is forbidden by law and dangerous. But there are always human who will do and think they can do. The same is with diving, deeper, further, etc without experience. If you need a person to help you further, you will find it. This is also human.

The question of not taking the full tank is also a proof we are human. If there are problems, people can make strange decisions. And we will never know the answer.
 
A certified cave diver gets stuck in a restriction and dies. Sad for him and his family and friends and perhaps all of us cave divers. The question for me is always - why did this happen? Aggressive diver? Not certified to be at that level of cave?
For the cave divers - how do you decide if the bedding plane is safe for you? Or vertical seam? Or tank on restriction? I have been places where my tall thin physique can go places that my dive buddy with the larger chest says no I can’t go there. I’m not certified as a CC diver but I understand that my profile as a SM diver is smaller vs SM CC diver with bail out. Had this diver been to this restriction in SM and made it through?
 

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