Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[boulderjohn]

BTW, the incident was at Jackson Blue, and Edd did most of the talking as we looked at the gear. My main contribution was calculating the PPO2 for the incident.

 

[raccoon]

I am sidemount cave certified. I am comfortable with the restriction in Ichetucknee Blue Spring. I have retreated from the Dark Water Tunnel at Peacock twice. I think there needs to be a course that teaches one how to judge restrictions.

 

[Biotech Diver]

If IIRC, this is an "accident and Incidents' forum, not a cave diving (deaths) only forum, so a variety of readers for all the threads (trying to learn something that may carry over into their sphere of diving, be it cave or not). So lets hope you dont make those kind of general mis-assumptions when cave diving. Besides, I was commenting on the Po2 part, which along with long duration dives is not confined to cave diving, nor are the myths opinions about it.

Well said. I'm not a cave diver because it doesn't interest me in the least and I can't think of a more terrifying way to die scuba diving than to die a half mile down in an underwater cave. I'm also not into CCR, however it is something I've always been curious about but likely will never invest in the time and gear to get certified when I can do everything I want with OC.

I try to learn from a lot of these accidents and incidents threads but I've come to realize over 90% of these threads are non value added in terms of learning something. People who do know details will not share them publicly but I'm sure they do share with certain peole offline who they trust. These threads almost always degrade and get paused and shut down or have posts removed by the mods. There are too many people with big egos and strong opinions who like to come in here and thump their chests and brag about their accomplishments, credentials, and secret knowledge of accident investigations which they won't share for various, often legal, reasons. I'm not sure what value any beginner diver would gain from reading most of the threads in this section of this forum, and that's why you don't see them post anything because they don't want to be ridiculed and lectured to by 5 or 6 highly skilled professional divers who keep touting their credentials.

I don't really care if this post offends anyone. It's the way I see it looking from the outside. I feel I can still learn from these threads in the patterns I observe from dive accidents and not really from any of the limited information shared by those who were actually involved in the accidents, rescue, or recovery.

 

[reddeaddiver]

Yes, the police rely heavily upon local experts. The IUCRR reports went directly to the police and would become the official reports. I was once involved with an accident Investigation, and the police stood around taking notes while we looked at the gear and explained everything to them.

I've found that its a game of telephone sometimes, especially with newer investigators. A lot can get lost in translation. I once spoke with a Lieutenant that was confused how the dive team were able to communicate during their deco stop. I had to explain what wetnotes and slates were. Its the same with every career, some teams are better at it than others.

Does the NSS-CDS need a volunteer (or team of volunteers) to compile information from statements provided by the recovery team and the actual law enforcement report? I have to agree with whoever posted it - doesn't ever seem likely that we're going to get reports out of the CDS, if we're still waiting on accident analysis from 1-2 years prior...

I thought NSS-CDS were already volunteers... besides, compiling the information is what I meant was the hardest part. You can submit all the forms and call the front desk all you want, but sometimes they won't release everything and they don't always have to give you a valid reason why, or they're backed up, there's a paywall, they forget about your request or the investigation isn't finished yet. Coast Guard investigations take a minimum of 6 months, I assume other death investigations take a while as well. Toxicology screenings can take up to 6 weeks. We just have to be patient, thats all I'm trying to say.

 

[Underwater Tourist]

I'm not a cave diver because it doesn't interest me in the least and I can't think of a more terrifying way to die scuba diving than to die a half mile down in an underwater cave.
[...]
I try to learn from a lot of these accidents and incidents threads but I've come to realize over 90% of these threads are non value added in terms of learning something.

@Biotech Diver Ultimately there are only so many ways you can die cave diving, so it is difficult to come up with “an original sin” and find a new way to die. Also I think the reason why you find a lot of info useless is because you know you won't be cave diving, so you don't pay attention to the comments as much as someone who is cave diving. I am not trying to say that 100% of the info is helpful in the accident threads, but for example for someone who is relatively new to cave diving (such as myself), there are always interesting and helpful points being brought up by more experienced people on this forum. So I actually couldn't disagree more about the comment below:

I'm not sure what value any beginner diver would gain from reading most of the threads in this section of this forum, and that's why you don't see them post anything because they don't want to be ridiculed and lectured to by 5 or 6 highly skilled professional divers who keep touting their credentials.

I found tremendous value going thru old SB threads in the accident and other technical diving sub-forums. Yes you have to filter out some info, but afterall, its an online forum, and not an agency educational website. I would even go as far as saying that had the deceased read more of SB, especially the technical diving sub forums, he probably would have had a more cautious approach to cave diving. I say that because I started researching cave diving 2-3 years before I actually completed my cave training, and when I did the said training, my instructor also commented that I had the right preconceived "dos" and "donts", and the reason I had them, is because of reading what more experienced people who had been cave diving for many many many years said on this forum.

 

[Six Feet Under]

I've found that its a game of telephone sometimes, especially with newer investigators. A lot can get lost in translation. I once spoke with a Lieutenant that was confused how the dive team were able to communicate during their deco stop. I had to explain what wetnotes and slates were. Its the same with every career, some teams are better at it than others.


I thought NSS-CDS were already volunteers... besides, compiling the information is what I meant was the hardest part. You can submit all the forms and call the front desk all you want, but sometimes they won't release everything and they don't always have to give you a valid reason why, or they're backed up, there's a paywall, they forget about your request or the investigation isn't finished yet. Coast Guard investigations take a minimum of 6 months, I assume other death investigations take a while as well. Toxicology screenings can take up to 6 weeks. We just have to be patient, thats all I'm trying to say.

In all fairness, USCG is under the federal government's umbrella. None of their employees are going to move quickly on anything...
I don't expect a report in three days, but two years later? I just can't see a death investigation taking that long when the bulk of the information is fairly obvious from the initial investigation and the only follow ups being ME/tox reports (or if they contradict initial findings at the scene) without some other factors being added in...

 

[rjack321]

In all fairness, USCG is under the federal government's umbrella. None of their employees are going to move quickly on anything...
I don't expect a report in three days, but two years later? I just can't see a death investigation taking that long when the bulk of the information is fairly obvious from the initial investigation and the only follow ups being ME/tox reports (or if they contradict initial findings at the scene) without some other factors being added in...

I'm not sure why you're expecting medical and toxicological information to be released to the public at all? I forget FLs privacy laws in that regard, but in my state those can only be released to next to kin (absent a crime) and you have to prove kinship.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I'm not sure why you're expecting medical and toxicological information to be released to the public at all? I forget FLs privacy laws in that regard, but in my state those can only be released to next to kin (absent a crime) and you have to prove kinship.

Only the photos and audio records made by the medical examiner are exempt from Florida's Sunshine laws, the so called Dale Earnhardt law, as it was created to protect his records.

Florida Sunshine laws are very broad with only a handful of exceptions, but we don't really need the medical examiner records. I think the NSS-CDS's reports are good enough, just give us some idea of what they have on their plate and what the release schedule will be.

No one worries much about aircraft accident investigations because the NTSB has a defined process and a proven history. I would like the cave community in Florida to be able to think the same way, knowing that within a defined reasonable time frame we will have a report if it was a diving related accident, or simply a remark that it was due to a medical issue so no report is needed.

 

[Six Feet Under]

I'm not sure why you're expecting medical and toxicological information to be released to the public at all? I forget FLs privacy laws in that regard, but in my state those can only be released to next to kin (absent a crime) and you have to prove kinship.

I don't think anyone really cares about either of those pieces of information (short of cause of death, which would be released AFAIK). We don't need tox records or autopsy photos/records of the deceased diver. Cause of death is relevant to determine whether it was a medical event or drowning only, the real "story" of the reports would be what events LED to their death. If someone has a heart attack underwater, it's simply bad timing (not going into the possibility of their diet, alcohol consumption, smoking, drug habits, etc.) but if they died because they didn't place the correct markers on the correct line, run a continuous guideline, use a gas with an appropriate MOD for their planned dive (whether accidentally via lack of gas analysis or through hubris), had an equipment failure, poor gas planning, etc. those would all be far more relevant to the dive community than anything the medical examiner could offer past indicating the individual drowned or had a medical episode.

Only the photos and audio records made by the medical examiner are exempt from Florida's Sunshine laws, the so called Dale Earnhardt law, as it was created to protect his records.

Florida Sunshine laws are very broad with only a handful of exceptions, but we don't really need the medical examiner records. I think the NSS-CDS's reports are good enough, just give us some idea of what they have on their plate and what the release schedule will be.

No one worries much about aircraft accident investigations because the NTSB has a defined process and a proven history. I would like the cave community in Florida to be able to think the same way, knowing that within a defined reasonable time frame we will have a report if it was a diving related accident, or simply a remark that it was due to a medical issue so no report is needed.

Agreed. FL public record laws are really broad, and the ME's records aren't really necessary. The only thing really relevant past cause of death for us is whatever information the dive buddy/team is able to provide investigators per their sworn statement(s) and the information about the condition/state of their equipment and the environment they were found in, which would be provided to the investigators from the recovery team.

 

[Brett Hatch]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Hello, I have moved 59 posts regarding oxygen toxicity, pulmonary toxicity, and CNS limits from this thread in to a new thread in the Rebreather forum. If you're interested in continuing that discussion go ahead and discuss it over there. I'm not a rebreather diver or a cave diver, so I've done my best pruning these. If I missed some, feel free to send me a DM or hit the report button.

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A Friendly Reminder...

This is the Accidents and Incidents forum, which enjoys special rules. Specifically, it's really not the place to engage in a lengthy criticism or discussion of general diving practices. Be kind to one another

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Cheers,
- Brett