Cave diver drowns - Jackson Blue Springs, Florida

[The Chairman]

Are you talking about the incident at eagles nest where the volunteers spent 3 days working around the clock without much in the way of sleep pulling equipment and bodies while people on scubaboard were demanding information, or another incident?

It was suggested that we were "demanding information right now", which was never the case. I was actually having a private conversation when I suggested that it would be great if we knew that there would be a report at sometime. I was told rather bluntly that I had no right to know and that I would probably never know because I had a bad attitude for wanting to know.

The community doesn't want to overstress its heroes. We get that time is needed not only to recuperate from the ardor and emotions of the recovery, but also to formulate and vet a report that would be useful as well as circumspect. With such indications that we did not have a right to know what happened, we were trying to figure out why.

 

[kensuf]

It was suggested that we were "demanding information right now", which was never the case. I was actually having a private conversation when I suggested that it would be great if we knew that there would be a report at sometime. I was told rather bluntly that I had no right to know and that I would probably never know because I had a bad attitude for wanting to know.

The community doesn't want to overstress its heroes. We get that time is needed not only to recuperate from the ardor and emotions of the recovery, but also to formulate and vet a report that would be useful as well as circumspect. With such indications that we did not have a right to know what happened, we were trying to figure out why.

If you really wonder why people don't want to talk honestly and open about accidents then I would suggest that you should look towards the beginning of this very thread for comments that were nothing but callous and cruel.

 

[The Chairman]

If you really wonder why people don't want to talk honestly and open about accidents then I would suggest that you should look towards the beginning of this very thread for comments that were nothing but callous and cruel.

Ken, mi amigo, I don't wonder one bit. I get to see all the comments that were far beyond that and were deleted. People react to death over a broad spectrum of responses. One of those responses is to blame the deceased. Idiopathic deaths scare the crap out of most of us. It's part of the reason why many people rubberneck at a traffic accident. Sure, it's convenient to ascribe this to ghoulish behaviors, but it's a part of our survival instinct. I want to know why someone doing the very same thing I do died, so I don't have to. I want to learn from history: not repeat it.

Whether they admit it or not, every cave diver mourned this death. I did. Yet, we still want to learn from it so we don't become another victim. That's what DAN is all about. I know the cave agencies suffer from turf disease, but wouldn't it be nice if they partnered with DAN and tried to publish the gist of all the cave deaths as best as we understand them? That separation of not being the final publisher might be all that's needed to appease the lawyers.

 

[Al Stevens]

They who?

Good question. The powers to be. I'm sure some organization is investigating the incedant.

 

[Manatee Diver]

I'm sure some organization is investigating the incedant.

There is.

 

[ofg-1]

You know, its funny to me how all of these accident threads degenerate in about the same sequence of BS.
First, you get condolences and well wishes.
Then, as some more info comes out, you get victim blaming.
If there is a suspected "medical event" comes the fitness nazis who want to tell you who should not be diving based on age and BMI.
Agency and certification bashing gets thrown in along the way, along with instructor shaming as if you have to call and ask your instructor to approve your every dive plan.
We always criticize the volunteers that expend their time and money to perform recoveries for not spreading more salacious details. Then the agencies that do the recoveries for not filing reports to your liking, usually the CDS or IUCRR. It annoys the hell out of some of you that the recovery divers may discuss things with close friends, but not you.
Scattered in along the way is attorney bashing, not that it may not be justified in some cases. Also in the mix is the group that believes that their "right to know", that doesn't exist, is more important than the deceased and their families right to privacy.
The cliche group always have to post something. "Know your limits". People don't, never have. "Dive within your certification". People don't, never have. A lot of exploration dives would stop if they did.
"Know your PO2." Half the rebreather accidents prove that people don't. That is not the fault of their instructor or certification agency or manufacturer.

This whole scenario just replays on an endless loop every time we have an accident.

Are there lessons to be learned here? Yes. Don't follow a line if you don't know where it goes. Just because you are sidemount certified does not mean you should cram your ass into every passage you see. Learn how to back out of a silted out passage, its not easy. What more are you trying to learn from this?

 

[Al Stevens]

You know, its funny to me how all of these accident threads degenerate in about the same sequence of BS.
First, you get condolences and well wishes.
Then, as some more info comes out, you get victim blaming.
If there is a suspected "medical event" comes the fitness nazis who want to tell you who should not be diving based on age and BMI.
Agency and certification bashing gets thrown in along the way, along with instructor shaming as if you have to call and ask your instructor to approve your every dive plan.
We always criticize the volunteers that expend their time and money to perform recoveries for not spreading more salacious details. Then the agencies that do the recoveries for not filing reports to your liking, usually the CDS or IUCRR. It annoys the hell out of some of you that the recovery divers may discuss things with close friends, but not you.
Scattered in along the way is attorney bashing, not that it may not be justified in some cases. Also in the mix is the group that believes that their "right to know", that doesn't exist, is more important than the deceased and their families right to privacy.
The cliche group always have to post something. "Know your limits". People don't, never have. "Dive within your certification". People don't, never have. A lot of exploration dives would stop if they did.
"Know your PO2." Half the rebreather accidents prove that people don't. That is not the fault of their instructor or certification agency or manufacturer.

This whole scenario just replays on an endless loop every time we have an accident.

Are there lessons to be learned here? Yes. Don't follow a line if you don't know where it goes. Just because you are sidemount certified does not mean you should cram your ass into every passage you see. Learn how to back out of a silted out passage, its not easy. What more are you trying to learn from this?

Well said. However I have personally learned a number of things from the mistakes of others. This how we have the rules that we do making diving safer. Throwing blame around is not productive nor kind. We all have personal responsibility in what we do when we dive.

 

[cerich]

Are there lessons to be learned here? Yes. Don't follow a line if you don't know where it goes. Just because you are sidemount certified does not mean you should cram your ass into every passage you see. Learn how to back out of a silted out passage, its not easy. What more are you trying to learn from this?

mentored/instruction before doing tight stuff, after you have good experience at Full cave, where you get stuck, figure it out (most of the time without mentors/instrs help) so that when it happens outside a "training" environment you don't lose your crap. Honestly, there are some techniques that are important (especially when doing equip removal major restrictions) however mindset is what will allow people to live, and also reduce the amount that manage to "have a moment", survive and quit cave diving (that happens more than most talk about)

 

[DOBY]

mentored/instruction before doing tight stuff, after you have good experience at Full cave, where you get stuck, figure it out (most of the time without mentors/instrs help) so that when it happens outside a "training" environment you don't lose your crap. Honestly, there are some techniques that are important (especially when doing equip removal major restrictions) however mindset is what will allow people to live, and also reduce the amount that manage to "have a moment", survive and quit cave diving (that happens more than most talk about)

Agree 100%. I takes time to gain the necessary experience after training. He may have had been CCR cave certified, but still did not have the necessary experience.

Making videos that say he most definitely did have enough experience to enter that tight side mount tunnel after being recently cave certified makes no sense and and might get more divers hurt IMHO.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Making videos that say he most definitely did have enough experience to enter that tight side mount tunnel after being recently cave certified makes no sense and and might get more divers hurt IMHO.

That is typical Dive Talk. They also helped spread the idea that oxygen shutoffs weren't a bad thing, after the 2021 death at Ginnie due to an oxygen shutoff.