I hope you're right - but this forum is littered with threads where several of those points were either not conclusively determined, or the results were not officially announced (or both)
Casino Point Fatality Sat. March 5th
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I hope you're right - but this forum is littered with threads where several of those points were either not conclusively determined, or the results were not officially announced (or both)
canadianwingnut
Registered
Sorry Guys..
Did this tragedy happen on the Ocean or in a Pool??
What Depth of Water? How about Instructor to student ratio?
are any of these things known?
Wingnut
Did this tragedy happen on the Ocean or in a Pool??
What Depth of Water? How about Instructor to student ratio?
are any of these things known?
Wingnut
I think we can safely say it was in the ocean
Based on PADI standards, we could speculate that the ratio should have been between 6:1 and 2:1 with a maximum depth of 6m/20' - but that's not known
Based on PADI standards, we could speculate that the ratio should have been between 6:1 and 2:1 with a maximum depth of 6m/20' - but that's not known
I am fortunate in that almost all of the local dive professionals talk to me, including providing information about this incident. What I am finding is that there is a lot of contradictory "information" floating out there which is a very good reason for not stating anything until the investigation results are known.
However, it is my understanding that additional assistance was provided by other dive professionals present at the time of this accident (based on their statements to me the following day). I had wondered if they were the "civilians" referred to. I'm not entirely sure of Ken's comment about the girlfriend being the civilian (although she was involved in the Discover SCUBA dive).
To answer Canadianwingnut's questions, this happened at the Casino Point Dive Park which is a protected ocean site on the leeward side of Catalina and considered appropriate for Discover SCUBA and OW classes by most training agencies. I think it is considered a fact that there were two "students" and one instructor involved. Although there are conflicting reports on the actual depth of the dive, I've heard from a reliable source that the maximum depth shown on the computer was 33 ft (within standards) although some have stated the dive took place to a depth of 50 ft. It is possible that the victim's body MAY have been recovered at a depth close to that. The offshore slope is pretty steep here, reaching as deep as 70-almost 100 ft within the limits of the park (although Discover SCUBA and OW courses are never conducted at those depths).
However, it is my understanding that additional assistance was provided by other dive professionals present at the time of this accident (based on their statements to me the following day). I had wondered if they were the "civilians" referred to. I'm not entirely sure of Ken's comment about the girlfriend being the civilian (although she was involved in the Discover SCUBA dive).
To answer Canadianwingnut's questions, this happened at the Casino Point Dive Park which is a protected ocean site on the leeward side of Catalina and considered appropriate for Discover SCUBA and OW classes by most training agencies. I think it is considered a fact that there were two "students" and one instructor involved. Although there are conflicting reports on the actual depth of the dive, I've heard from a reliable source that the maximum depth shown on the computer was 33 ft (within standards) although some have stated the dive took place to a depth of 50 ft. It is possible that the victim's body MAY have been recovered at a depth close to that. The offshore slope is pretty steep here, reaching as deep as 70-almost 100 ft within the limits of the park (although Discover SCUBA and OW courses are never conducted at those depths).
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The news story is in post #4 and includes...
So he was doing a shore dive in the ocean there, as hundreds do any weekend, and where Discover courses are done all the time. One might infer from the brief news story that he bolted for the surface and incurred an injury from that, but news stories are not reliable, those who do know are not giving facts here, but we might get them later on if they want to.
As those of you new to these threads will find out, we rarely get answers. Investigations can take months, and there are some privacy issues, along with possible pending litigation (i.e. the dive professionals involved, instructors, dm's, etc., will almost never comment as that can influence a court decision) that typically keep us from all the facts. By the time the facts are out everyone has forgotten about the incident so nothing is posted.
It would be great if we could get more direct feedback and answers from the various channels, but it just doesn't seem to happen. Usually, if we get any information at all, it comes from family and friends of the victim, or witnesses from the scene.
That leaves speculation and guarded comments. Ken is very active with the chamber (Catalina Hyperbolic Chamber where virtually all dive accident victims are taken on Catalina), so has availability to some information that he can share, and much that he cannot. Not to put words in his mouth, but what he posts is what he knows at the time and can repeat publicly.
It would be great if we could get more direct feedback and answers from the various channels, but it just doesn't seem to happen. Usually, if we get any information at all, it comes from family and friends of the victim, or witnesses from the scene.
That leaves speculation and guarded comments. Ken is very active with the chamber (Catalina Hyperbolic Chamber where virtually all dive accident victims are taken on Catalina), so has availability to some information that he can share, and much that he cannot. Not to put words in his mouth, but what he posts is what he knows at the time and can repeat publicly.
canadianwingnut
Registered
Folks...
I just want to say, I have read the rules of this forum.I am reluctant
to ask about death's. but as a new Diver I think that this forum can really
help me...
If I ever ask anything..Not correct to this forum PLEASE have a talking to me
Thanks Wingnut
I just want to say, I have read the rules of this forum.I am reluctant
to ask about death's. but as a new Diver I think that this forum can really
help me...
If I ever ask anything..Not correct to this forum PLEASE have a talking to me
Thanks Wingnut
I don't think there's anything wrong with the questions you're asking, it's just that as others said, most of the answers are not in the public domain at the current time, and we try to avoid needless speculation, which can be detrimental to friends and relatives who may come across this thread looking for answers about the untimely death of their loved one
Reading between the lines, you as a new diver want to know if there's something you should be concerned about, and the short answer is that if you follow the rules you were taught during your training, it's extremely unlikely that anything untoward will happen to you. Statistically speaking, recreational scuba diving is very safe
The contradictory statements I have heard over the last "two" weeks are a good reason why such things should not be posted in such a thread. There are "facts" that can be independently judged to be true, and those may be fair game, but there are also opinions and these may not be borne out later by the "facts."
I think we can all agree that, like any other diving accident, this is a sad thing for all involved from the dive professionals to the family and friends of the deceased.
I think we can all agree that, like any other diving accident, this is a sad thing for all involved from the dive professionals to the family and friends of the deceased.
Ken Kurtis
Contributor
Allow me to clarify a few things:
1. I was incorrect in stating the civilian who helped out was the girlfriend. It was not. I misunderstood the information that was relayed to me. But the point of that post wasn't the identity of the civilian who assisted.
2. The point of the comment was to clarify the use of the word "civilian". In other words, the phrase is commonly used to describe a non-professional-level person. Since a few people had commented that they found it odd that the phrase was used, I thought it merited explanation.
3. I think it's important for people who post here, especially if you're offering details/facts/critcisms/etc., to actually sign your name (and perhaps affiliation) to your post. It gives people a better perspective from which to weigh what it is you have to say. And if you're wrong about something, own up to it and move on.
4. Don't get too hung up on the word "routine". It does not mean "unimportant". It means there's a protocol/pattern/steps to be followed in the investigation that hopefully yield answers and shed light on what happened.
5. There are mutliple agencies involved in Los Angeles County in the investigation of a diving fatality. When all is said and done, all the involved agencies will not necessarily come to the exact same conclusion about the events being investigated. No one agency has a monopoly on the facts or the truth.
6. I appreciate the "trusted source" comment but even trusted sources made mistakes sometimes.
- Ken
------------------------
Ken Kurtis
Owner, Reef Seekers Dive Co.
Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalties, L.A. County Coroner
1. I was incorrect in stating the civilian who helped out was the girlfriend. It was not. I misunderstood the information that was relayed to me. But the point of that post wasn't the identity of the civilian who assisted.
2. The point of the comment was to clarify the use of the word "civilian". In other words, the phrase is commonly used to describe a non-professional-level person. Since a few people had commented that they found it odd that the phrase was used, I thought it merited explanation.
3. I think it's important for people who post here, especially if you're offering details/facts/critcisms/etc., to actually sign your name (and perhaps affiliation) to your post. It gives people a better perspective from which to weigh what it is you have to say. And if you're wrong about something, own up to it and move on.
4. Don't get too hung up on the word "routine". It does not mean "unimportant". It means there's a protocol/pattern/steps to be followed in the investigation that hopefully yield answers and shed light on what happened.
5. There are mutliple agencies involved in Los Angeles County in the investigation of a diving fatality. When all is said and done, all the involved agencies will not necessarily come to the exact same conclusion about the events being investigated. No one agency has a monopoly on the facts or the truth.
6. I appreciate the "trusted source" comment but even trusted sources made mistakes sometimes.
- Ken
------------------------
Ken Kurtis
Owner, Reef Seekers Dive Co.
Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalties, L.A. County Coroner
