Casino Point Fatality Sat. March 5th

[Underwaterone]

Allow me to clarify a few things:

1. I was incorrect in stating the civilian who helped out was the girlfriend. It was not. I misunderstood the information that was relayed to me. But the point of that post wasn't the identity of the civilian who assisted.

2. The point of the comment was to clarify the use of the word "civilian". In other words, the phrase is commonly used to describe a non-professional-level person. Since a few people had commented that they found it odd that the phrase was used, I thought it merited explanation.

3. I think it's important for people who post here, especially if you're offering details/facts/critcisms/etc., to actually sign your name (and perhaps affiliation) to your post. It gives people a better perspective from which to weigh what it is you have to say. And if you're wrong about something, own up to it and move on.

4. Don't get too hung up on the word "routine". It does not mean "unimportant". It means there's a protocol/pattern/steps to be followed in the investigation that hopefully yield answers and shed light on what happened.

5. There are mutliple agencies involved in Los Angeles County in the investigation of a diving fatality. When all is said and done, all the involved agencies will not necessarily come to the exact same conclusion about the events being investigated. No one agency has a monopoly on the facts or the truth.

6. I appreciate the "trusted source" comment but even trusted sources made mistakes sometimes.

- Ken
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Ken Kurtis
Owner, Reef Seekers Dive Co.
Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalties, L.A. County Coroner

"Routine investigation" is a civilian term. It will never be used by a professional investigator. That is why people questioned it. No investigations follow the exact same protocols, steps or patterns. Different investigations are conducted in a different manner based on the circumstances surrounding the death and sometimes based on a gut feeling by the investigators. Not all dive equipment is tested the same way. Circumstances dictate the extent and type of testing.

"No one agency has a monopoly on the facts or the truth". - This gets a little complicated. I would expect that all agencies tell the truth, but it may be the truth as they know it. The Los Angeles Sheriff's Department books all dive gear as evidence during an investigation. No one, including the Coroner's Office, can have this equipment until after the Sheriff's Department tests the equipment and determines it is no longer needed for their investigation. During the testing process conducted by the Sheriff's Department the equipment is altered from its original condition. From that point on any other agency is relying on the Sheriff's Department results.

The Coroner's Office determines the cause of death (drowning etc.). They have a very close relationship with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. They work together on deaths on a daily basis. I have never seen the two agencies differ on their final conclusions.

 

[robertarak]

Ken Kurtis is known to many of us and known to the board and forums. His previous posts and qualification as, "Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalties, L.A. County Coroner" gives him credibility.

Underwaterone, as a new member (welcome to the board) with only 6 posts and no known qualifications, you lack the credibilty to argue fact with Ken. Would you care to share some of your qualifications with us?

 

[Underwaterone]

Ken Kurtis is known to many of us and known to the board and forums. His previous posts and qualification as, "Forensic Consultant for scuba fatalties, L.A. County Coroner" gives him credibility.

Underwaterone, as a new member (welcome to the board) with only 6 posts and no known qualifications, you lack the credibilty to argue fact with Ken. Would you care to share some of your qualifications with us?

Please don't misread my intentions. I have no ill will for Mr. Kurtis or anyone else on this board. I have never heard of him. I happened onto this forum yesterday and saw some inaccurate comments. I corrected this information to avoid frustration among friends and family members of the decedent. I don't think posting inaccurate information and then saying never mind I was mistaken is appropriate. It is better to only post personal eyewitness accounts and information released by authorities. That way there are no mistakes about what someone thought they heard somewhere, and family members don't have to read nonsense while grieving.

I have not claimed to be an expert on anything, or to have any qualifications. I just do my homework. I welcome anyone to dispute the facts that I have posted. Everything I posted is public information and confirmed by authorities. All of the information I posted is available to the general public by doing some research with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department and the Coroner's Office. Dive safely.

 

[merxlin]

Please don't misread my intentions. I have no ill will for Mr. Kurtis or anyone else on this board. I have never heard of him. I happened onto this forum yesterday and saw some inaccurate comments. I corrected this information to avoid frustration among friends and family members of the decedent. I don't think posting inaccurate information and then saying never mind I was mistaken is appropriate. It is better to only post personal eyewitness accounts and information released by authorities. That way there are no mistakes about what someone thought they heard somewhere, and family members don't have to read nonsense while grieving.

I have not claimed to be an expert on anything, or to have any qualifications. I just do my homework. I welcome anyone to dispute the facts that I have posted. Everything I posted is public information and confirmed by authorities. All of the information I posted is available to the general public by doing some research with the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department and the Coroner's Office. Dive safely.

Your intentions are great and I wish that all events could be handled this way. But the truth is, as I posted earlier, we rarely if ever get all the facts. Sometimes people post what they know (at the time), and sometimes what we know is proven otherwise later. The credibility of the poster is in how they handle that, and as Ken said, he was mistaken.

As far as damage done to family and friends, there is a warning at the top of this forum (Here) that perhaps this is not the place to be for them. One of the other benefits of these threads is that sometime even the most speculative of posts brings up good discussion points about dive safety. The more people discuss and are made aware of the possible dangers and the things that go wrong out there, the more prepared they can be for those events should they occur. We do not discuss them out of morbid curiosity. So yes it sucks that sometimes mis-information is posted. But it is not intentional nor is it completely without benefit.

We welcome your input and facts as you find them. Please continue to update us as you find out more information.

 

[Underwaterone]

Your intentions are great and I wish that all events could be handled this way. But the truth is, as I posted earlier, we rarely if ever get all the facts. Sometimes people post what they know (at the time), and sometimes what we know is proven otherwise later. The credibility of the poster is in how they handle that, and as Ken said, he was mistaken.

As far as damage done to family and friends, there is a warning at the top of this forum (Here) that perhaps this is not the place to be for them. One of the other benefits of these threads is that sometime even the most speculative of posts brings up good discussion points about dive safety. The more people discuss and are made aware of the possible dangers and the things that go wrong out there, the more prepared they can be for those events should they occur. We do not discuss them out of morbid curiosity. So yes it sucks that sometimes mis-information is posted. But it is not intentional nor is it completely without benefit.

We welcome your input and facts as you find them. Please continue to update us as you find out more information.

Great comments merxlin. I can see your point and agree. Thank you for the insight.

 

[The Chairman]

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[SmartyPants]

Well, unfortunately I was there, saw it all happen from the shore, helped pull the poor guy to the steps, and I'm still not sure exactly what happened. My condolences to all involved. I know the visuals I have in my head will stay with me for a LONG time.
As far as I can recall, Ken Kurtis has the most accurate information on this incident - but no real surprise there huh? I had the pleasure of attending one of his talks at the Long Beach convention center a few years ago - fascinating.

 

[sharksdelight]

I would like to know what kind of supervision is provided within the confines of a "Discover Diving' class. I would have thought there would be many more Instructors and DMs than one might find in a real certification class.

When I was a diver on the San Diego Sheriffs Search and Recovery dive team, I had the sad duties to search for, find, bag and pull up a few bodies. One time, the dad of the victim was there for a full day in blazing sun as we searched only to find the body about 10 minutes before we were ready to call it quits after 12 hours of searching in almost zero vis. Having to open the bag in front of the dad and cut the small buoy line from the deceased's wrist made me feel just horrible and I will never forget it.

Steve

 

[drbill]

I would like to know what kind of supervision is provided within the confines of a "Discover Diving' class. I would have thought there would be many more Instructors and DMs than one might find in a real certification class.

Steve, I am NOT a dive professional but observe many Discover SCUBA experiences here in the park and know instructors who have literally done thousands of them. Most of the ones I see involve a dive instructor with 1-2 participants. However, I do not know the various agency limits on such dives. Therefore the instructor:student ratio is much lower (better) than in most OW classes.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

I would have thought there would be many more Instructors and DMs than one might find in a real certification class.

Teaching standards allow for up to 4 students per instructor in a Discover Diving type experience. In this incident, my understanding is that there were 2 participants with the instructor, so it was within the standards ratio.

- Ken