Can I dive without an octo?

[jale]

As I said before, I was not sure 100%... But I cannot find in the documents you sent where they mention an octo for level 1 divers.... where is it?

EDIT: in the "Niveau 1" document, they only mention "detendeur" (=regulator) for the diver twice, and "octopus" twice as well, but the octopus is mentioned only "passage to the octopus of the dive master"... but I still do not find anywhere that the level one diver must have the octopus

code du sport, #5

 

[ginti]

code du sport, #5

Do you refer to this?

"plongeur encadré au-delà de 20 mètres et chaque plongeur en autonomie" (=supervised divers deeper than 20m and autonomus divers) means more than "niveau 1". More precisely:
niveau 1 = plongeur encadré jusqu'à 20 mètres (supervised diver up to 20m)
niveau 2 = plongeur encadré jusqu'à 40 mètres et en autonomie jusqu'à 20 mètres (supervised diver up to 40m and autonomus up to 20m)

There are some intermediate levels, for instance, one can be only autonomous up to 20m (PA20) or only supervised up to 40m (PE40). As for the code, these people are supposed to use an octo, or some other system of redundancy. But it does not say anything about the "niveau 1"

 

[jale]

Do you refer to this?
View attachment 667592

"plongeur encadré au-delà de 20 mètres et chaque plongeur en autonomie" (=supervised divers deeper than 20m and autonomus divers) means more than "niveau 1". More precisely:
niveau 1 = plongeur encadré jusqu'à 20 mètres (supervised diver up to 20m)
niveau 2 = plongeur encadré jusqu'à 40 mètres et en autonomie jusqu'à 20 mètres (supervised diver up to 40m and autonomus up to 20m)

There are some intermediate levels, for instance, one can be only autonomous up to 20m (PA20) or only supervised up to 40m (PE40). As for the code, these people are supposed to use an octo, or some other system of redundancy. But it does not say anything about the "niveau 1"

Because "code du sport" is the law. "niveau x" is framed by the ffessm (which is the largest federation but not the only one)...if I remember correctly...I don't go into this "enculage de mouche" (excuse my French ) anymore

 

[ginti]

Because "code du sport" is the law. "niveau x" is framed by the ffessm (which is the largest federation but not the only one)...if I remember correctly...I don't go into this "enculage de mouche" (excuse my French ) anymore

You are right, the code du sport is the law. And again, it says that only autonomous divers AND divers going deeper than 20m need, by law, a secondary source of air (often an octopus).

"Niveau x" is framed by FFESSM and ANMP. In both agencies, the first level is NOT autonomous and does not allow to dive deeper than 20m. That is, according to the "code du sport", "niveau 1" divers can dive with one single regulator, which is what I stated at the beginning. Also, FFESSM is a CMAS member, and as such, "niveau 1" is equivalent to a one-star diver.

That said, I believe that most instructors teach with octopus, because they have the freedom to do it. But as far as I understood, the FFESSM/ANMP standards do not require any octopus or other secondary air sources, and so far the code du sport confirms my point...

In other words, it seems there are two agencies that do not require any redundant air source for OW divers.

 

[jale]

You are right, the code du sport is the law. And again, it says that only autonomous divers AND divers going deeper than 20m need, by law, a secondary source of air (often an octopus).

"Niveau x" is framed by FFESSM and ANMP. In both agencies, the first level is NOT autonomous and does not allow to dive deeper than 20m. That is, according to the "code du sport", "niveau 1" divers can dive with one single regulator, which is what I stated at the beginning. Also, FFESSM is a CMAS member, and as such, "niveau 1" is equivalent to a one-star diver.

That said, I believe that most instructors teach with octopus, because they have the freedom to do it. But as far as I understood, the FFESSM/ANMP standards do not require any octopus or other secondary air sources, and so far the code du sport confirms my point...

In other words, it seems there are two agencies that do not require any redundant air source for OW divers.

Just for the sake of talking
"Niveau 1" from these agencies is in fact, according to the "code du sport", divided into PA12 and PE20. That means that a "niveau 1" is autonomous till 12 meters and not autonomous from 12 to 20. Then a diver 'niveau 1' needs an extra air source (#5).
The only time it is not stated a diver needs an alternate air source is when this diver is PE12 (non autonomous till 12m) so the equivalent of PADI scuba diver (not owd)
Anyway, this my reading and I don't think many people here care about these labels

 

[ginti]

Just for the sake of talking
"Niveau 1" from these agencies is in fact, according to the "code du sport", divided into PA12 and PE20. That means that a "niveau 1" is autonomous till 12 meters and not autonomous from 12 to 20. Then a diver 'niveau 1' needs an extra air source (#5).
The only time it is not stated a diver needs an alternate air source is when this diver is PE12 (non autonomous till 12m) so the equivalent of PADI scuba diver (not owd)
Anyway, this my reading and I don't think many people here care about these labels

I don't think it is just for the sake of talking, it can be relevant to this discussion.

Anyway, here the code du sport:

The standard "niveau 1", which is equivalent to the one-star CMAS diver, is the first one, and it does not include any autonomy.

You can, if you want, add the autonomy to 12m, but it is not required and it isn't standard.

By the way, this is the first time I hear about FSGT and UCPA

 

[jale]

The "niveau 1" without PA12 is not really the CMAS 1 star as CMAS 1 star can dive "unsupervised" but must be "accompanied" (2 1 star divers ok).
As usual the French want their "exeption française" and are expert at making things not that straight
By going through different French diving shops, N1 includes PA12
FSGT is older than FFESSM
EDIT: add pic

 

[ginti]

The "niveau 1" without PA12 is not really the CMAS 1 star as CMAS 1 star can dive "unsupervised" but must be "accompanied" (2 1 star divers ok).
As usual the French want their "exeption française" and are expert at making things not that straight

I agree that niveau 1 and 1star diver are different... but this is not what the agreements between the French federations and CMAS say. And I also agree that French people want to be different, and are very good at it

Anyway, my point has never been whether the idea of diving with one single regulator is a good one or not (I think it is absolutely bad). My point was just that at least an agency exists that does not require alternative air sources for their entry-level divers.

Because of the complexity of the French rules, I might be mistaken, but the annexes of the code du sport you previously linked are pretty clear:
- niveau 1 requires PE20 but does not require PA12
- PE20 divers are not expected to dive with alternative air sources.
The picture you are showing now is from a shop, I think it doesn't have any legal value... the code du sport does.

By going through different French diving shops, N1 includes PA12

This can be possible. When I said that the standard is without PA12, I was referring to club diving, not to shops. Clubs and shops behave in a very different manner.

Just out of curiosity, I will discuss it with the technical director of my club on Monday, to be sure that I understand correctly.

 

[jale]

I agree that niveau 1 and 1star diver are different... but this is not what the agreements between the French federations and CMAS say. And I also agree that French people want to be different, and are very good at it

Anyway, my point has never been whether the idea of diving with one single regulator is a good one or not (I think it is absolutely bad). My point was just that at least an agency exists that does not require alternative air sources for their entry-level divers.

Because of the complexity of the French rules, I might be mistaken, but the annexes of the code du sport you previously linked are pretty clear:
- niveau 1 requires PE20 but does not require PA12
- PE20 divers are not expected to dive with alternative air sources.
The picture you are showing now is from a shop, I think it doesn't have any legal value... the code du sport does.



This can be possible. When I said that the standard is without PA12, I was referring to club diving, not to shops. Clubs and shops behave in a very different manner.

Just out of curiosity, I will discuss it with the technical director of my club on Monday, to be sure that I understand correctly.

When you are talking to him ask him that is the difference, in 2021, between a club and a shop
"sacrilège" may be his answer

 

[ginti]

When you are talking to him ask him that is the difference, in 2021, between a club and a shop
"sacrilège" may be his answer

Usually, I would agree with you, but I am lucky enough to be in a club of very open-minded people