Can I dive without an octo?

[uncfnp]

Thanks to Boulderjohn for supporting my "head for the surface" post. As he says this is what I was initially taught for OW but not only that this view has ben reinforced by several very experienced instructors since. There is no hold breath test for PADI but before starting train to dive with BSAC you have to demonstrate you can hold your breath underwater for at least 30 seconds. When I was a fit young swimmer I used to be able to do over 3 lengths of the pool underwater without surfacing, this would be about 80m and that was with the exertion / oxygen consumption of swimming. Now, despite being older, overweight and less fit I can still hold my breath for 90 + seconds. I feel all divers should practice breath holding with the aim of exceeding a minute. It gives you a lot of confidence, meaning you are less likely to panic knowing you have this time to find an alternate air source if yours fails.

It has been a few years since OW but as I recall the first choice for emergency ascent is to keep weight and swim up your rig (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent). Then if needed to drop weights at the surface. Dropping weights at depth would be a very last choice.

 

[60plus]

Just a comment (not wishing to start an argument) with this. A CESA is fine from the depth and visibility it is usually done in OW learning (12m or so) but when done from a greater depth the effort of swimming puts more CO2 into the lungs and the wish to breathe can become unbearable. Ditch your weights and lay flat (freefall parachute position) to control your ascent speed, relax and you will find it much less stressful even from deeper depths.
If you look at diving fatality statistics it is noticeable that many who have died have not ditched their weights. Ditching weights is easy and straightforward when in a situation where panic could set in, messing about with bcd inflator (which may not work anyway) or trying to ensure you are actually swimming directly upwards is not so certain with panic starting.

 

[uncfnp]

Just a comment (not wishing to start an argument) with this. A CESA is fine from the depth and visibility it is usually done in OW learning (12m or so) but when done from a greater depth the effort of swimming puts more CO2 into the lungs and the wish to breathe can become unbearable. Ditch your weights and lay flat (freefall parachute position) to control your ascent speed, relax and you will find it much less stressful even from deeper depths.
If you look at diving fatality statistics it is noticeable that many who have died have not ditched their weights. Ditching weights is easy and straightforward when in a situation where panic could set in, messing about with bcd inflator (which may not work anyway) or trying to ensure you are actually swimming directly upwards is not so certain with panic starting.

And is this something you are recommending from experience? To a new diver? As a reasonable choice after making a poor choice in gear configuration AND no buddy?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I feel all divers should practice breath holding with the aim of exceeding a minute. It gives you a lot of confidence, meaning you are less likely to panic knowing you have this time to find an alternate air source if yours fails.

I'd rather dive with redundancy. Only in shallow dive spots (40 feet or less) will I dive a single tank. Otherwise it is sidemount or twinset. That way I can calmly address emergency situations of my own or someone else. I rely on no one. That is something my open water instructor taught me because he was a standards violating clown.

 

[Bob DBF]

If you look at diving fatality statistics it is noticeable that many who have died have not ditched their weights.

If one is having a heart attack or stroke they would not likely drop their belt, and since medical events are a large cause of death in divers, they might not get to it. Also anyone in full panic, since they are no longer thinking, will not think to do it.

Otherwise I agree with you that the movement in scuba not to emphasize watermanship skills and train for catastrophic events is not a good thing. The good news is that the gear solutions seem to be working.

 

[boulderjohn]

It has been a few years since OW but as I recall the first choice for emergency ascent is to keep weight and swim up your rig (Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent). Then if needed to drop weights at the surface. Dropping weights at depth would be a very last choice.

In the current OW course for (I believe) most agencies, the following four choices are listed for emergency ascents in order of preference.

1. Normal ascent. Finding yourself very low on air, you can just go to the surface, breathing normally. In all reality, this would likely be true if you started that ascent as soon as you realized it was getting harder to breathe, which made you look at your gauges and realize things were not going well.
2. Air share with buddy. This assumes your buddy is close enough to share air using an alternate air source.
3. CESA. The depth from which this is recommended is really unclear. The idea is that you will ascend while exhaling and traveling at a normal ascent rate. You will actually dump air from your wing as you ascend in order to maintain a safe ascent rate.
4. Buoyant ascent. This is when you want to make sure you get to the surface. This is only different from the CESA in that you drop your weights. Yes, it is your very last choice.

 

[boulderjohn]

If you look at diving fatality statistics it is noticeable that many who have died have not ditched their weights. Ditching weights is easy and straightforward when in a situation where panic could set in, messing about with bcd inflator (which may not work anyway) or trying to ensure you are actually swimming directly upwards is not so certain with panic starting.

As Bob DBF noted, the fact that most diver fatalities still have their weights on is deceptive, because most of them did not have any opportunity to ditch weights. The primary cause of death on dives is medical, usually heart attacks. The primary cause of death that could be prevented through training, according to a joint PADI/DAN investigation, is air embolism following a panicked ascent to the surface, evidently while holding the breath. In that case the diver made it to the surface too quickly, arguably meaning that dropping the weights not only would not have helped, it might have made it worse.

It would take a very serious situation to make me drop my weights at depth, most likely a sense that I was about to pass out from some medical reason and I was hoping someone on the surface could revive me. However, it is taught as a standard practice. If I were to find some reason other than a heart attack to drop my weights at depth, I am quite sure I would reach the surface in good shape.

 

[Bob DBF]

3. CESA. The depth from which this is recommended is really unclear. The idea is that you will ascend while exhaling and traveling at a normal ascent rate. You will actually dump air from your wing as you ascend in order to maintain a safe ascent rate.

Basicly a normal ascent, however it will probably be faster, trying to maintain less than 60 fpm which is the maximum "safe" ascent rate.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Given that many divers are overweighted, an emergency swimming ascent without an instructor to control their speed can make for a bad day.

 

[ginti]

FFESSM, they teach sharing octo at their level one
https://mft.ffessm.fr/pages/documents

As I said before, I was not sure 100%... But I cannot find in the documents you sent where they mention an octo for level 1 divers.... where is it?

EDIT: in the "Niveau 1" document, they only mention "detendeur" (=regulator) for the diver twice, and "octopus" twice as well, but the octopus is mentioned only "passage to the octopus of the dive master"... but I still do not find anywhere that the level one diver must have the octopus