Can I dive without an octo?

[ginti]

A secondary second stage is absolutely a mandatory equipment.
Especially for a new diver.

As far as I understand, some agencies do not require new divers to have a secondary regulator. I am speaking about FFESSM here.

The reasoning is that a new diver is not capable (yet) to properly manage a scenario where he/she is donating air, so no reason to have a tool for this situation. However, instructors may teach, if they want, their students to use the octo and may require them to have it during dives.

People having more experience with French agencies can correct me in case I said something wrong, or add something else.

@bardass @JMBL

 

[El Diablo]

That thing does have a normal 3/8” thread under the adaptor
The reputable manufacturer uses exactly the same reg with a different sticker on the purge button




What are you talking about here

Sorry for my late reply. First of all, you could be a little more cordial, you aren't talking to a relative or friend of yours.

You are right about the 3/8" thread. Regarding the 'reputable' manufacturer you are mentioning that uses the same 2nd safe, would you mind sharing it here?

Also, mind that Chinese knock-offs might use the same casing (plastics) but the quality of the material and parts design might differ. Known brands also trend to rebrand regulators. Scubapro MK25, Cressi AC25, and Halcyon H75P are the same stage with different stickers as you've mentioned BUT there are still differences (ex. the Scubapro is rated for cold water while the Cressi model is not). However, in other instances like the Aquatec RG-1100F, that 1st stage might look like an MK25 but it performs no near the Scubapro model it copies. Apeks also had its fair share with cheap knock-offs made in China.

Now that octo the original author posted costs 20-25€ approx. (in Germany) while the cheapest reputable one (Mares Loop) is 59€. If you want to use a non-branded generic safe second that you have absolutely no idea how it is regulated or will perform in an emergency situation instead of a known and proven one, be my guest. You will probably not be able to service that thing anyway so factor-in the price for a replacement and suddenly the gap has disappeared... in any case, the question is: are +40€ potentially worth your life or your buddy's? Luckily, it seems that the original OP is more clever than that.

Closing, I have no issues with Made in China whatsoever. I use DJI, Apple, Sony, Nikkor, etc products with ZERO issues. My discontent is with unbranded non-reputable sources.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

First of all, you could be a little more cordial, you aren't talking to a relative or friend of yours.

I thought you were the devil I know

 

[El Diablo]

That thing does have a normal 3/8” thread under the adaptor
The reputable manufacturer uses exactly the same reg with a different sticker on the purge button




What are you talking about here

I just saw you also posted an uneducated answer to the Spare Air comment.

Spare Air advertises 57 SURFACE BREATHS for the 3CF and 114 for the 6CF.

At 10m that's 28 and 57 respectively.
At 20m that's 19 and 38.
At 30m we have 14 and 28 breaths.

Scubalab measured 35 breaths for the 3CF with a calm diver standing still at 10m (vs estimated 28) and 66 vs 57 estimated for the 6CF.

As you can see, this is quite dangerous as you will need to consider that an out of air diver is quite in distress and his metabolic rate increases as well as his work of breath. We are also not thinking about any safety stop whatsoever.
With the 6CF model you could get to the surface if calm enough, you ascent rate of course is a different story.

Again, Scubalab tested the 3CF unit to last 04:15 at 10m that translates to 02:48 at 20m and 2mn at 30m.

Perhaps a VERY calm diver could get away with the biggest 6CF model... but difficult in any case. IMO, the best case scenario is that the Spaire Air should give you enough time to find you buddy or another diver with a proper safe second and then perform a controlled ascent.

View attachment 667416


I thought you were the devil I know

Humor is very welcome BUT it seems that you reply always in the same uneducated tone to all members. Everyone can be an and act like an *******.

 

[boulderjohn]

As far as I understand, some agencies do not require new divers to have a secondary regulator. I am speaking about FFESSM here.

The reasoning is that a new diver is not capable (yet) to properly manage a scenario where he/she is donating air, so no reason to have a tool for this situation. However, instructors may teach, if they want, their students to use the octo and may require them to have it during dives.
[/USER]

I have never heard this. That in itself would make an interesting thread. Every agency I know not only requires alternate air sources, the training for its use starts in the first pool session.

I have only been diving for about a quarter of a century, and my PADI training was the same then as it is now. I was surprised to learn in a recent thread, however, that it was not long before that time that PADI did not teach alternate air sources as a part of the OW course and instead taught one regulator buddy breathing. I assume that is because alternate air sources were just coming into use, so there is no guarantee a diver would have one. When alternate air sources became nearly universal, PADI switched to making its instruction a requirement, and they made buddy breathing optional. Eventually they dropped buddy breathing altogether, believing it is too dangerous.

So, is FFESSM somewhere on that training change timeline? If they do not require alternate air sources, do they instead require buddy breathing?

 

[TMHeimer]

I have never heard this. That in itself would make an interesting thread. Every agency I know not only requires alternate air sources, the training for its use starts in the first pool session.

I have only been diving for about a quarter of a century, and my PADI training was the same then as it is now. I was surprised to learn in a recent thread, however, that it was not long before that time that PADI did not teach alternate air sources as a part of the OW course and instead taught one regulator buddy breathing. I assume that is because alternate air sources were just coming into use, so there is no guarantee a diver would have one. When alternate air sources became nearly universal, PADI switched to making its instruction a requirement, and they made buddy breathing optional. Eventually they dropped buddy breathing altogether, believing it is too dangerous.

So, is FFESSM somewhere on that training change timeline? If they do not require alternate air sources, do they instead require buddy breathing?

I was surprised to read that too.
Regarding buddy breathing-- I heard the reason PADI dropped it was because it was an unnecessary complicated thing for a new diver to do. Much like EFR and others dropping the different compressions to rescue breaths ratio for children vs. adults-- again, too complicated for the layman to remember (so my instructor said).
I am puzzled why learning buddy breathing-- in a course with an instructor-- can be a bad thing. If someone is out of air, you donate your octo. If for some reason YOUR octo doesn't deliver air, you could resort to buddy breathing. If new divers, that seems a better idea than like, just shooting to the surface-- you're screwed anyway and panic may occur.
But, maybe eliminating buddy breathing was just done either because it was deemed 99.999% unnecessary and thus a waste of pool time?
Of course I was taught it during the DM course, so maybe it's still (?) taught there is simply as a task loading thing? Anyway, I figured knowing how to do it can't hurt.

 

[ginti]

So, is FFESSM somewhere on that training change timeline? If they do not require alternate air sources, do they instead require buddy breathing?

Buddy breathing requires even more skills than sharing an octo, this is not their reasoning The first level, although equivalent to an OW according to agreements between agencies, is in a way similar to the PADI supervised diver. Indeed, level 1 divers are not allowed to dive on their own: they need a Level 4 diver (= divemaster/guide) to guide them.

Anyway, as I said before, it is better to wait for people with more experience than me; I know the FFESSM, but not that deeply (I don't even hold any diving license from them)

 

[jale]

FFESSM, they teach sharing octo at their level one
https://mft.ffessm.fr/pages/documents

 

[boulderjohn]

I am puzzled why learning buddy breathing-- in a course with an instructor-- can be a bad thing. If someone is out of air, you donate your octo. If for some reason YOUR octo doesn't deliver air, you could resort to buddy breathing. If new divers, that seems a better idea than like, just shooting to the surface-- you're screwed anyway and panic may occur.

Dr. Glen Egstrom of the University of California, a former president of NAUI, did a study on buddy breathing and found that it takes an enormous number of successful practice attempts for a buddy team to be able to do it successfully under pressure. He further found that it needed regular practice. That is for a buddy team, not two people who meet randomly. In practice, there were many experiences where it did not work out well--the OOA diver tended not to give the regulator back.

In Florida about 10 years ago, a woman rented a regulator set that did not have an alternate. Another diver on the trip went OOA and for some reason was unable to ditch his weights while being significantly overweighted for lobstering. She shared air with him via buddy breathing. They both died.

If someone were to run out of air near me on a recreational dive and for some reason I did not have an octo, I would give up my regulator and do a CESA, leaving my BCD if necessary. If I were to run out of air near a diver who did not have an alternate, I would do a CESA. I firmly believe a CESA is much safer than buddy breathing with someone I do not fully trust to give me back the regulator.

 

[60plus]

Thanks to Boulderjohn for supporting my "head for the surface" post. As he says this is what I was initially taught for OW but not only that this view has ben reinforced by several very experienced instructors since. There is no hold breath test for PADI but before starting train to dive with BSAC you have to demonstrate you can hold your breath underwater for at least 30 seconds. When I was a fit young swimmer I used to be able to do over 3 lengths of the pool underwater without surfacing, this would be about 80m and that was with the exertion / oxygen consumption of swimming. Now, despite being older, overweight and less fit I can still hold my breath for 90 + seconds. I feel all divers should practice breath holding with the aim of exceeding a minute. It gives you a lot of confidence, meaning you are less likely to panic knowing you have this time to find an alternate air source if yours fails.