Can I dive without an octo?

[Dan G]

This always runs through my mint when the panicked statements start, “you’ll die if you…” today is better, equipment is better, training “may” be better…

I support the idea of many new ideas and techniques but people need to chill a bit. Can you dive without an Octo? Yes, should you dive without an octo? No, it would be somewhat foolish now even if it were the norm in the past.

I think this is a key statement, especially as it relates to the OP's original post. The OP has stated that they were convinced after a few pages of this thread to buy a second stage. A key part of the early discussion was the OP's training which appeared to not include buddy breathing and any other skills for dealing with OOA were unclear. Relying on CESA as the first-choice response to OOA does not seem ideal.

I have only been OOA twice and both were during a class in which I was learning to dive doubles. A regular drill in this course was to switch second stages, turn off a valve, and then turn the valve back on. (it might have been turning off and then switching second stages) This was repeated as I worked my way through the 3 valves all while trying to maintain good trim. Sounds easy enough, but it was easy to get distracted through the process, especially since part of the drill was to take your hand off the valve you just shut down and return to regular trim position.

Long story short is that I OOA during an attempt because I forgot to turn a valve back on during the process. I was so shocked by not having any air to breathe, I went for the surface from about 15-20 feet. The next time I made the same mistake, (yes I made the same mistake twice) I was less panicked and I looked for my instructor who had his primary second stage ready to donate because he saw the whole thing coming.

I learned a lot in those two occurrences, and one big takeaway was how the shock of being suddenly OOA can cause someone to act. People should stick to their training even if that training is narrow and limited. Introducing a new, untrained skill is a bad idea IMHO if that skill will only be used in a possibly a panic situation.

 

[lexvil]

More like every new thing that makes diving safer and easier will catch on, other new gear might just be a fad, or attempted improvement that doesn't work out, and then there is a lot of crap. A diver will probably have a bit of each, if not on them, then back at their dive locker.

Like split fins

 

[jale]

I have only been OOA twice .

Don't say "only". Twice is enough

 

[Bob DBF]

I learned a lot in those two occurrences, and one big takeaway was how the shock of being suddenly OOA can cause someone to act.

Having started diving before the widespread use of the SPG, I probably went OOA more than anyone on the thread, except possibly @grf88 . Using a k-valve without a SPG insures an OOA until one has the experience to accurately predict when the tank will empty. A j-valve was better, unless the reserve somehow went back to the fill position. In early training a lot of time was spent on training for the OOA event which would eventually happen (not to mention the gear wasn't necessarily as reliable as now). And then one had to deal with it until more experienced. This was the reason that OW divers were reccomend to limit themselves to 60' or less until they got more experience.

The shock of suddenly being OOA is a basic human fear and will cause panic. There are several ways to deal with it. Old school relies on watermanship skills and experience, yours relies on redundancy skills and experience. Both initial experiences were in a training environment rather than initially on a fun dive.

Since I started using an SPG, I have not unintentionally gone OOA. However I don't know if this counts, but one day, after a few dives, I did a surface swim and did my normal surface dive, and at around 20 or so feet, I realized I still had my snorkel in my mouth and not my reg. After mentally commenting about being a f'n idiot, I unclipped my primary, put it in my mouth and continued the dive.

 

[grf88]

Having started diving before the widespread use of the SPG, I probably went OOA more than anyone on the thread, except possibly @grf88 . Using a k-valve without a SPG insures an OOA until one has the experience to accurately predict when the tank will empty. A j-valve was better, unless the reserve somehow went back to the fill position. In early training a lot of time was spent on training for the OOA event which would eventually happen (not to mention the gear wasn't necessarily as reliable as now). And then one had to deal with it until more experienced. This was the reason that OW divers were reccomend to limit themselves to 60' or less until they got more experience.

The shock of suddenly being OOA is a basic human fear and will cause panic. There are several ways to deal with it. Old school relies on watermanship skills and experience, yours relies on redundancy skills and experience. Both initial experiences were in a training environment rather than initially on a fun dive.

Since I started using an SPG, I have not unintentionally gone OOA. However I don't know if this counts, but one day, after a few dives, I did a surface swim and did my normal surface dive, and at around 20 or so feet, I realized I still had my snorkel in my mouth and not my reg. After mentally commenting about being a f'n idiot, I unclipped my primary, put it in my mouth and continued the dive.

I have never gone OOA although I have used the reserve. I have descended with my snorkel still in my mouth, probably why I now never use one but on some dives have one in my pocket.

 

[stretchthepenn]

I have only been OOA twice and both were during a class in which I was learning to dive doubles. (...) I learned a lot in those two occurrences, and one big takeaway was how the shock of being suddenly OOA can cause someone to act.

Yup. My one OOA was much the same thing--a valve drill that I f'ed up--and it was an unnerving experience. I was at 40', and I had to consciously force myself to chill out and not bolt for the surface.

 

[boulderjohn]

Since we are speaking of valve drill panics....

I had a student do that once in about 12 feet of water. I was right in front of him with my long hose regulator in my hand when it happened. I saw that he was about to breathe from a shut off regulator and was ready for it. When he did it, I was right there with the regulator, but he was not interested. I kept trying to give him the regulator all the way to the surface, and I was holding onto him to stop him or at least slow him down the whole way. He never knew it.

This was a beginning tech class. The decision we came to was that he could not continue with the class until he had reached a better stage of readiness. What do I mean by that? A diver who is ready to begin tech should not panic when a problem like that occurs. Your thought process should be "No air! Damn! I left the valve closed. I'd better open it." That whole process, from realization to breathing, should take about 3 seconds, and you should be able to go without air for 3 seconds. Barring that, you have another regulator off of another valve that would be available in a couple of seconds. Barring that, you have other divers nearby, including an instructor in front of you with a regulator in his hand.

The whole idea of tech training is to prepare you so you can solve your problems at depth, because the surface is not available to you. You have redundant gear so you will always have an option for every possible problem, but having options for every possible problem is of no value if your very first reaction is to sprint to the surface in blind panic.

That is tech diving. The same is really true of recreational diving. The first rule of diving is never hold your breath. IMO, the second rule is don't panic. Stop. Think. Act.

 

[Dan G]

Don't say "only". Twice is enough

True. For one, on the second time, I wish I had had the presence of mind to find the valve and open it up or switch back to the other second stage. Perhaps

Since we are speaking of valve drill panics....

I had a student do that once in about 12 feet of water. I was right in front of him with my long hose regulator in my hand when it happened. I saw that he was about to breathe from a shut off regulator and was ready for it. When he did it, I was right there with the regulator, but he was not interested. I kept trying to give him the regulator all the way to the surface, and I was holding onto him to stop him or at least slow him down the whole way. He never knew it.

This was a beginning tech class. The decision we came to was that he could not continue with the class until he had reached a better stage of readiness. What do I mean by that? A diver who is ready to begin tech should not panic when a problem like that occurs. Your thought process should be "No air! Damn! I left the valve closed. I'd better open it." That whole process, from realization to breathing, should take about 3 seconds, and you should be able to go without air for 3 seconds. Barring that, you have another regulator off of another valve that would be available in a couple of seconds. Barring that, you have other divers nearby, including an instructor in front of you with a regulator in his hand.

The whole idea of tech training is to prepare you so you can solve your problems at depth, because the surface is not available to you. You have redundant gear so you will always have an option for every possible problem, but having options for every possible problem is of no value if your very first reaction is to sprint to the surface in blind panic.

That is tech diving. The same is really true of recreational diving. The first rule of diving is never hold your breath. IMO, the second rule is don't panic. Stop. Think. Act.

I wholeheartedly agree, John. After the second time, I realized how far I needed to go in my training because I was mad at myself for not problem solving the situation effectively. I remember thinking afterward, 'why didn't I just turn the valve back on?' It was honestly a great wake-up call for me as a diver. I almost made the same error a 3rd time on another day (my instructor had me do this drill multiple times a day and we got to the point where he would just signal me to do the drill while we were in the middle of something else), but I caught my mistake before going OOA.

 

[boulderjohn]

. I remember thinking afterward, 'why didn't I just turn the valve back on?' It was honestly a great wake-up call for me as a diver. I almost made the same error a 3rd time on another day (my instructor had me do this drill multiple times a day and we got to the point where he would just signal me to do the drill while we were in the middle of something else), but I caught my mistake before going OOA.

I don't teach OW classes anymore, but in my last years I started doing a demo in the first session because when students did skills that required them to either have the regulator out of their mouths or their air shut off, I often saw them do the skill in what looked like near panic, as if going more than a second without a working regulator in the mouth would be fatal. Once I started doing the demo, I never saw that happen again.

I would lie down on the pool floor on my right side, with my right elbow on the pool floor and my head resting on the hand--a common attitude of leisure. I tried to look bored. I would then take the regulator out of mouth and lay it on the floor, blowing a tiny stream of bubbles out of my mouth. I would drum the fingers of my left hand on the floor--again looking bored. I would casually look at my watch. I would pat my mouth as if yawning. Then I would pick up the regulator and return it to my mouth.

Maybe I need to come up with something like that for tech classes, too.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

Humor is very welcome BUT it seems that you reply always in the same uneducated tone to all members. Everyone can be an and act like an *******.

As you can see the devil, I have not singled you out as being special at all. Is there a particular reason you are sharing your vast knowledge of the spare air and quoting me.