C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?

[archer1960]

I see them as being rooted in liability. If a dive operator is willing to take the liability of letting someone dive without a cert card, dive outside their cert limits, fill tanks that they don't show a cert for, that's up to them. Some are very loosy goosy with that decision, some make it based on who they know, some decide based on how much money they will lose if they don't serve you as a diver, and then others stick to the letter of the law to cover their own butts. This is why cert card "requirements" vary so widely from country to country, state to state, and even dive shop to dive shop.

I don't own a dive operation but if I did, I would probably be very strict about needing to see a card. It wouldn't be to be a jerk or to stop people from diving but there is one enormous benefit, one added bonus, and one under-appreciated benefit that I see on the business side of being strict:
1) First and foremost, it protects me from liability. When an open water diver has a fatal heart attack underwater and happens to be at 70ft when it happens, his family will try to sue me for everything I'm worth. My career would risk being over and I would risk bankruptcy. It would be up to the judge to decide but I can protect myself against their lawyers by not allowing him to dive beyond what he has proven to me that he is certified to do.
2) Less important than that, it allows me to sell more courses. "Hey man, you're an open water diver and we have some awesome sites below 60ft. I can help get you there by doing and advanced course for you. Oh, you want to go deeper still? How about my decompression class!" Some people take this way too far and I disagree with their tactics but done right, this mentality can increase business.
3) As a customer, I look for dive operators that have a reputation for following standards. Being asked and seeing others asked for cards is one of those ways that the operator is actively and visibly following standards making me more likely to recommend them to friends.

There are a lot of shortcomings to the certification card system, there is no doubt about it. However, in a world where we can fabricate dive logs, lie about experience, and embellish how good we are, the certification card is a way that dive operators can protect themselves.
At the end of the day, it's their prerogative to either take the liability by letting you dive or to protect themselves by not allowing you outside of what you can prove your certified for. After all, in Florida all you need to legally dive is a dive flag. You can have all of your own gear and dive all you want but the certification card issue only comes up when you go to dive with a shop or have your tanks filled.

That makes sense for diving with the shop, but I don't quite understand why they would require a C-card to fill tanks. Compressed air is used for lots of things beside SCUBA diving...

 

[rhwestfall]

I suspect the purpose of this thread is to have an argument rather than a discussion, .................

winner! winner! winner!

 

[boulderjohn]

.
Abroad, I've been asked for my c-card in most places in the Caribbean as well as Australia and Vanuatu. Not in Fiji though.

Here's my Fiji experience.

I don't remember if they asked me for a card--it was quite a while ago, and I was still a relatively new diver. On the first day I noticed that one of the divers looked really, really new. He was struggling with everything. He was not assigned a buddy, and I deciedd to stick reasonably close to him just in case he needed one. On each of the two dives, he ran low on air long before everyone else, and the DM sent him to the surface alone. The next day it was the same problem on the first dive--he floundered with basic skills and went up alone very early. Then we had lunch on an island during the surface interval, and the guy packed away an enormous number of hot dogs. When it came to the second dive, he was not feeling well, and he skipped it.

When we got back to shore, a man met him at the boat, asking him how it went. The two went into the shop together while I worked on rinsing my gear. When the diver came back out, he had a student folder and a log book in hand. I asked about it, and he explained that he had just gotten his OW certification. The man who greeted him on the shore was his instructor, and the three dives he had done with us were his four certification dives--he got credit for the one he didn't do because of his bellyache. He performed none of the required skills during those dives.

So the dive operation that let him dive not only knew he was not certified, they knew he had never dived before, and they knew his instructor was not going to be on the boat with him. They not only did not care, the DM did not see any reason to treat hims as anything other than a seasoned diver.

 

[archer1960]

Here's my Fiji experience.

I don't remember if they asked me for a card--it was quite a while ago, and I was still a relatively new diver. On the first day I noticed that one of the divers looked really, really new. He was struggling with everything. He was not assigned a buddy, and I deciedd to stick reasonably close to him just in case he needed one. On each of the two dives, he ran low on air long before everyone else, and the DM sent him to the surface alone. The next day it was the same problem on the first dive--he floundered with basic skills and went up alone very early. Then we had lunch on an island during the surface interval, and the guy packed away an enormous number of hot dogs. When it came to the second dive, he was not feeling well, and he skipped it.

When we got back to shore, a man met him at the boat, asking him how it went. The two went into the shop together while I worked on rinsing my gear. When the diver came back out, he had a student folder and a log book in hand. I asked about it, and he explained that he had just gotten his OW certification. The man who greeted him on the shore was his instructor, and the three dives he had done with us were his four certification dives--he got credit for the one he didn't do because of his bellyache. He performed none of the required skills during those dives.

So the dive operation that let him dive not only knew he was not certified, they knew he had never dived before, and they knew his instructor was not going to be on the boat with him. They not only did not care, the DM did not see any reason to treat hims as anything other than a seasoned diver.

Wow! My OW instructor wasn't the most conscientious instructor around (I later discovered), but he at least was with us in the water, and made us perform the required skills to some level or another.

 

[ScubaForScience]

That makes sense for diving with the shop, but I don't quite understand why they would require a C-card to fill tanks. Compressed air is used for lots of things beside SCUBA diving...

I can't help but thinking about this article in responding to that question. Send Lawyers Guns & Money

Welcome to the age of lawsuits. If I'm a dive shop filling a tank that someone could very likely use to go diving and I don't have proof that this person is a certified diver, I would absolutely be hesitant. I would have to assume that this person isn't in fact certified despite any story he/she might give and that the tank will be used for diving. From there, it's easy for me to think that it is more likely that an untrained diver could have an accident. If this person has an accident, it is very conceivable for the family to use the shotgun approach (see article) to sue anyone they can think of and I would be on that list. In a court of law, I would be pinned for negligence and would thus legally have to pay my life savings for the family's pain and suffering because some bozo convinced me that the tank wouldn't be for diving. Sure the customer could tell me the tank is for aerating an aquarium, operating pneumatic tools, or it's for a friend, but I personally wouldn't be willing to take that chance and would tell him/her to either show a card or try another shop.

If I owned a shop, that's the logic I would use. But I don't, and I've never been in this situation; I'm just trying to present another view to consider. It makes sense to me but take it for what it's worth.

 

[KeithG]

A card isn't even required to get fills at some shops (mine for one), only to rent THEIR tanks. They DO require a card before you can dive with them on a shop-organized dive, or rent their other equipment.

the only card required to rent tanks at my LDS is a credit card. i just finished renting a tank to perform my routine service check on my regs (and no i am not an authorized regulator service technician either). they never asked why i wanted it. i just said i wanted a small tank for the weekend. no problems if you do not live in a society ruled by lawyers...capitalism works.

 

[boulderjohn]

the only card required to rent tanks at my LDS is a credit card. i just finished renting a tank to perform my routine service check on my regs (and no i am not an authorized regulator service technician either). they never asked why i wanted it. i just said i wanted a small tank for the weekend. no problems if you do not live in a society ruled by lawyers...capitalism works.

With the total number of dives mentioned in your profile, I would hazard a guess that they know who you are.

 

[Doc]

I don't carry a NitrOx card and get fills all the time, from pretty much anywhere. In fact, I dove for over thirty years without a C-card of any kind. Most shops can smell BS when it walks through the door.

I have a nitrox card and use nitrox when needed. If you were to whip out a NitrOx card, the Scuba Spelling Police would take you down.

I don't recall showing a C Card to dive in many years no matter where
I went. Maybe because my dive gear is as old looking as I am, maybe because I dated the DMs grandmother, stuff like that.

Depends on where you go to dive? Most destinations I go to run off of generator power, lights out at 10pm. Not a whole lot of book protocol.

My wife just got back from a Christmas "office party" in Cancun where some went on a morning outing for "diving". Before she could venture off on two "35' immersions for 45 minutes", she showed her antique CMAS Minor God CCard which they really couldn't decipher. Her work associates forgot their CCards and the dive op didn't care. Off they went for $220 each.

I am am in the wrong country in the wrong business.

 

[BRT]

When I go for my nitrox fill, the LDS will refuse to fill my tank unless I show them my Nitrox certification card. I can always try to convince the LDS that there is no such thing as scuba police because according my online buddies on scubaboard, the entire scuba industry is actually a self-regulatory industry where scuba police does not exist and that "certification card" that they are demanding from everyone is in fact a "recommendation card!" This rhetoric that generates a shocking volume of applause on internet forums will not get me a nitrox fill once I get off the internet.

I can't remember ever being carded for a fill, air or nitrox, since 1985. I should specify that they like to see a credit card. One guy did ask me what the mod was for 32% and 36%.

 

[KeithG]

With the total number of dives mentioned in your profile, I would hazard a guess that they know who you are.

well i am in their computer system from past purchases. but they have no idea if i am certified since i do not dive locally. the only card they have ever seen is a credit card. the LDS that i certified at went out of business many years ago.