OP I dive with most often collects CCards at the start of the trip. Return before you reach shore. They claim no card, no dive. Never tested it even though I have over 100 dives with them. Their boat. Their rules.
C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?
- Thread starter CAPTAIN SINBAD
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I always carry the C Card when on scuba trip.
I was backpacking around Mexico many yrs ago. When I tried to sign up for a daily diving trip in Playa de Carmen I was refused because I did not have the C card. My DAN card was not acceptable to the operator. Actually I was quite impressed by the operator for his insistence that no card = no dive.
I was backpacking around Mexico many yrs ago. When I tried to sign up for a daily diving trip in Playa de Carmen I was refused because I did not have the C card. My DAN card was not acceptable to the operator. Actually I was quite impressed by the operator for his insistence that no card = no dive.
CT-Rich
Contributor
My only C-card is my 1980 NAUI "SCUBA Diver" I took a picture of it on my cell phone because it is so old that it is getting very brittle. I don't ever recall being asked to show it. I did look at getting a replacement a couple of years ago and found out it would be 1/4 the price I paid for the 12 week class for them to dig through their paper records and print a new one. I might take AOW with my daughter next year or at least. rescue.
Historically, in the 1970s and 80s there weren't a lot of other uses for dive shops to be selling air. But the C-cards were there to give cover for the industry to be a self-regulating. If the c-cards weren't there, we might have ended up with gov't regulated diving where we would be sitting with a Coast Guard examiner ect. The current system isn't perfect, but it is better for the community and industry than having the USGC regulating and inspecting us. Imagine how much we'd love to have the USCG partrol boat periodically heaving to and checking our C-cards and making sure our marine head was properly configured to a tank. The situation with the profit driven instruction isn't such a bad compromise.
Historically, in the 1970s and 80s there weren't a lot of other uses for dive shops to be selling air. But the C-cards were there to give cover for the industry to be a self-regulating. If the c-cards weren't there, we might have ended up with gov't regulated diving where we would be sitting with a Coast Guard examiner ect. The current system isn't perfect, but it is better for the community and industry than having the USGC regulating and inspecting us. Imagine how much we'd love to have the USCG partrol boat periodically heaving to and checking our C-cards and making sure our marine head was properly configured to a tank. The situation with the profit driven instruction isn't such a bad compromise.
admikar
Contributor
Well, it turns out you're wrong (and so was I). With your OW card (or in my case CMAS *) you are certified to dive down to a recommended depth of 60 ft (65 in my case). It is a recommendation, not a rule,so basically, diver can go deep as he/she wants. So, while you protect yourself on accident side, you could get sued for discrimination, unless there are other factors in play, such as local laws. To be honest, I'm surprised someone didn't try this already.
No, he can set any rules and limits he wants on the divers who dive through his operation. The fact that the depth limits are only recommendations will protect him somewhat, but that depends upon the dive. If there is a problem on the dive, the attorneys will point to the recommendations as industry standards and challenge his judgment in allowing the diver to exceed those recommendations. He might be OK, but maybe not.
If it is a benign, uncomplicated dive to 70 feet, such as is regularly done at dive resorts around the world, he will probably be OK. Why? Because when the plaintiffs attorneys ask how he knows that its OK for an OW diver to go to that depth, he can point to the fact that dives like that are done without complications every day all over the world. His judgment that it is safe to exceed recommended limits on that dive will look good, because everyone else is doing it.
On the other hand, let's say that it is a dive to a deeper southern California wreck or, say, the Spiegel Grove wreck in Florida, and the diver has a problem. The plaintiffs attorneys point out that other operators that do those dives consider it an advanced dive and require all divers who do it to have the AOW certification. He will now have a bit more trouble proving to the jury that his judgment was sound.
That is why it is becoming more and more common for dive operators to require the AOW certification for those dives. Why? Because it is no longer a matter of judgment. If they have that policy and follow it, then their judgment is not up for debate in a trial.
ScubaForScience
Registered
Thanks for clarifying that, admikar; I haven't looked at that verbage in a long time. I would still be a little wary despite 60ft being the recommended limit instead of the required limit. If I was a captain taking open water divers out to a site explicitly past 60ft such as a shipwreck that is at 100ft or a reef that the top of it only comes to 60ft and drops from there. I think the prosecuting attorney would be able to make a case (not necessarily win, but make a case) and I would have to put my hope in my attorney to defend my decision to knowingly let divers go beyond the recommended limit. It all comes down to how much risk you're willing to take as a dive operator and I guess my answer would be little to no risk at all whereas others are more willing to bend the recommendations and allow others to dive. I have no problem with any of that, but if my neck is on the line, I'm going to do my best to protect it and if that means sticking very closely to the recommendations put out by the certifying agencies and not letting certain divers dive certain sites, then so be it.
I'm really glad that I don't own a shop or dive operation that has to deal with this though. I can only imagine how much of a headache it would be every day. Hats off to those of you who do deal with this on a regular basis.
Kairoos
Contributor
I've never had a dive shop ask me for a nitrox card if I'm bringing in a tank with a nitrox sticker on it already.
CT-Rich
Contributor
It is interesting to read a lot of hypotheticals on this thread. I think there are a few things most of us aren't taking into account. First, the C-card is really the last venue where a family will go in trying to extract money in the event of a bad outcome. The first thing they are going to look at is the liability waiver each diver signs when they get on the boat. I haven't looked at one recently (and sadly) but they usually put virtually all of the responsibility accidental death on the head of the diver. And if you are a dive op, you are going to make that pretty damn water tight. Next they would go on the behavior of the persons on the boat and question what was going on that day and if there was any actions by the captain or the crew that led to the death (I was just checking the air on his tank.... I thought it was off, so I turned it on...). If they get down to dive logs (he hadn't dove in twelve years and you knew it or he was doing the Hitler isn't OW dance (god I love that video)).
The OW vs. AOW certification is pretty thin because it isn't required by law, they make recommendations and their are a bajillion agencies and varying qualities of instructors. So a captain could reasonably claim (as is argued ENDLESSLY on SB) that the cards don't really mean that much. The final nail on the coffin is that if you are a dive op and you take a reservation with a credit card and the guy left his C-card at home, you are literally handing him money back and going to sea with an empty seat... I can't imagine that these guys have margins that lets them exclude 5-10% of there clientele because of a piece of plastic. From what I have read (but tragically not been able to afford) most of the ops will take you on an easy dive and see how you do before they take anyone anywhere near a challenge. They probably do it without you even realizing they are sizing you up.
A lawsuit based on a C-card seems pretty unlikely unless it was linked to either the instructor or negligence by the charter.
The OW vs. AOW certification is pretty thin because it isn't required by law, they make recommendations and their are a bajillion agencies and varying qualities of instructors. So a captain could reasonably claim (as is argued ENDLESSLY on SB) that the cards don't really mean that much. The final nail on the coffin is that if you are a dive op and you take a reservation with a credit card and the guy left his C-card at home, you are literally handing him money back and going to sea with an empty seat... I can't imagine that these guys have margins that lets them exclude 5-10% of there clientele because of a piece of plastic. From what I have read (but tragically not been able to afford) most of the ops will take you on an easy dive and see how you do before they take anyone anywhere near a challenge. They probably do it without you even realizing they are sizing you up.
A lawsuit based on a C-card seems pretty unlikely unless it was linked to either the instructor or negligence by the charter.
Mr Carcharodon
Contributor
I can't think of a Southern California boat where I have ever been asked for a nitrox card, and being asked for a c-card at all is the exception rather than the rule. You must dive different boats. Last time I dove in a tropical location the dive shop owner asked me if I was a good diver but there was no c-card requested. But most tropical dive locations do ask in my experience.
Depth limits for different flavors of cards is also something I have never seen in practice. That seems unenforceable in locations where there is no dive master in the water which is pretty much every place I have ever been in the US.
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