C Cards Requirement or Recommendation?

[rivers]

He (and his team) reckoned they did have the experience, knowledge and training to attempt it. The group involved were Tec instructors and should have known better (link). There is a difference however between having thoseknowledge skills etc and using them however.

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None of which were certified to dive over 65m. Garman was attempting a 365m dive. Him and his team were told repeatedly by members of this forum who have a hell of a lot more experience than he and his team had combined that it was a very dumb idea and would end in death.
They were a bunch of cowboys who know nothing at all about technical diving.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

60 matters some places but not so much in others. Most of the dive sites I dive off NC the bottom is 80-100 ft. I see lots of OW divers on the 80ft dives and some on the 100 ft dives such as our ledges. A popular dive with NEW OW divers is the Hyde. Bottom at 80-85. Top deck at 60. A typical dive may spend some time at 60, some time at 80-85, some time back up at 60. I have instabuddied with new OW divers on the Hyde and they had maybe 4-6 quarry dives prior to our meeting up. And now a there are usually two dives a trip and the SI is about an hour. Second sometimes on the Markham where you are varying from 40 on top to 85 in the sand but everybody hits the sand to see the big props.

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not. If we are giving people computers so that they may violate the limits set by their training then that requires a different discussion, much serious than the one we are having. Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer. Every 10 feet of unintentional buoyancy loss below 60 takes 10 minutes off your max time of 60 minutes. 70 ft will mean dive will now last 50 minutes and 80 feet will mean dive will last 40 minutes instead of 60.

I am sorry CAPTAIN SINBAD, that we have never met, nor have we ever discussed diving in the past, but I take it that you are a man who is subject to rules that make sense. I too am one of these types. I am in IT, and if it doesn't make sense, something is "fishy" and shouldn't be done.

Those dives should not be permitted whether the guy has a computer or not.

... Huh? Are you basing this on logic, or experience for which you have personal knowledge? I ask this because everyone has different personal experiences to draw from, especially underwater experiences. In my own experiences, my checkout dive was with my instructor at 60' as I followed him as he was spear fishing. Does this make me a better diver or a lacking diver? No, it is just how comfortable my instructor felt I was in the water (early 1980s).

Now if an open water diver accidentally loses buoyancy then that is a situation that he can easily address without having a computer. Every 10 feet of unintentional buoyancy loss below 60 takes 10 minutes off your max time of 60 minutes. 70 ft will mean dive will now last 50 minutes and 80 feet will mean dive will last 40 minutes instead of 60."

... Again, Huh? If an Open Water Diver is trained on their computer and dive tables (tables taught in every single OW course today), are they not capable of working their dive tables and their computer? Does a computer immediately mean the new diver is in danger? Based on your post, it seems your answer is yes, but I am not certain and would like a specific clarification (Please).

Honestly, I have taken a number of OW courses, and I have sat in on a few OW computer courses to critique their teaching process'. No course I have observed has relied completely on a computer... Honestly, they all have reverted back to tables as the ultimate source in a computer failure...

By the way, when I was certified, the OW cert was good for 240', or the point of O2 toxicity... On another note, my first dive with my dive shop after certification was a trip to South Florida, where the first dive was on the Mercedes when it was fully intact... 90' to the top, and I was invited in by the dive master to penetrate through the wreck... I was comfortable with my experience and the experience of the dive master to take him up on the invite and had a memorable experience... Thank goodness the dive police were not onsite!

 

[Bob DBF]

By the way, when I was certified, the OW cert was good for 240', or the point of O2 toxicity...

Considering the OW cert has always been given for No Decompression Limits diving, could you point out the agency and/or training materials that trained to that limit. The New Science of Skin and SCUBA Diving, which was one of the preeminent training texts for early SCUBA, emphasized NDL diving and was limited at 190' which was the deepest one could could dive without decompression protocols.

I could have missed something along the way, as I dove for years without formal training or certification on both NDL and deco dives, so I only know second hand how divers were trained between '62 and '80. O2 toxicity has to do with depth, time, and the divers tolerance at that particular time, which is why air has been dove deeper than 240' without issue, and has caused problems on dives not even that deep.

In my informal training a hard number was not used for O2 toxicity nor the onset of Narcosis, because both are a result of more than one factor. Both were considered a moving target. How one felt may not be very scientific reason to turn a dive, but it could be an indication of a larger problem and the successful divers were good at making the correct call.


Bob

 

[Rhone Man]

Considering the OW cert has always been given for No Decompression Limits diving, could you point out the agency and/or training materials that trained to that limit.

Is that accurate? Certainly the original PADI tables I trained on (which were based on the USN tables) had deco stops provided for (although I think they did say that they were for emergencies).

I am also pretty sure that the CMAS one star training does (or at least did) include training for decompression diving, as did the old BSAC ocean diver (although it doesn't any more).

 

[Bob DBF]

Is that accurate? Certainly the original PADI tables I trained on (which were based on the USN tables) had deco stops provided for (although I think they did say that they were for emergencies).

I am also pretty sure that the CMAS one star training does (or at least did) include training for decompression diving, as did the old BSAC ocean diver (although it doesn't any more).

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I was trained on the Navy tables years earlier than PADI, decompression was taught as an emergency procedure. It was covered as "if your dive plan goes south, this is how you recover, hope you have enough air", it certainly impressed upon me the importance of following your dive plan. The diving you were trained to do and got a cert for was NDL diving, even though your knowledge of the tables would be sufficient if/when you started doing Deco. OW was/is taught as NDL diving so that the new diver has direct access to the surface and will be pretty safe if he doesn't lose his head when the crap hits the fan, start playing with deco and it's a whole new ballgame.

It is one thing to know and possibly use an emergency procedure, it is another to be qualified for Deco diving. Planning a deco dive off the tables was a piece of cake, working with an experienced diver and getting good enough in planning and execution so I could go along for the dive was brutal. My first serious deco dive did not involve a BC or SPG. Now the equipment is better, there is training and certs for everything, and the dives I made are nothing compared to dives presently being made. I now occasionally dabble in some old school deep and/or deco diving for old time sake, but leave it up to the certified kids to really push the limits.




Bob
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That's my point, people, by and large, are not taught that diving can be deadly, they are taught how safe it is, and they are not equipped with the skills, taught and trained to the level required to be useful in an emergency.

 

[AmorForTheOcean]

I have had the opposite anecdotal experience. In most countries, especially the US, I am always asked for c card and nitrox card. The one exception was Bali, and they let my friend who was not quite certified dive with a guide, which I did not agree with. So I wouldn't use them again for both those reasons. Your life is at stake, I'm surprised so many operators as per this thread don't ask. I even had one look at my dive log. And in the FL Keys, the more reputable shops won't take you out to certain wrecks without your AOW.

 

[TMHeimer]

All dive agencies have the same problem, and they often get criticized for something that I don't see how they can control. At all levels of training, the diver is supposed to be limited to that level of training at first and then extend those limits while using good judgment. As an example, the final trimix training class in an agency's sequence usually certifies the diver to a certain depth, yet there is no course after that for when the diver wishes to go deeper. The course materials for the trimix course I teach talk about this is more detail than usual for a course, but it still all boils down to one sentence: use good judgment as you extend your diving experiences beyond the limits of your training.

The criticism you will see leveled in threads like this is that the agency does not teach you how to use good judgment, so it cannot prevent divers from making stupid decisions in diving beyond their abilities.

I am sure all agencies would be grateful to those critics if they would provide the course material that will effectively teach students to use good judgment. I am sure that if you would send them those curricular materials, they would pay you well for them.

Yeah that's it. There are no course materials for good judgement. There is no agency rule that you can't exceed 60' with only OW cert. Only recommendations. Experience and gradually increasing depth apparently works as well as AOW, since there are OW divers with 1,000 dives. Extending your depth right away after OW also seems to be OK if you are with a dive pro (that's the same as AOW in a way). Good judgement is just good judgement.

 

[Doppler]

I... even divers with experience/ all the certifications (such as Guy Garman) and back up are no guarantee of the right skills. He technically had all the skills...

I would like to guide you away from that misinterpretation of the situation. Garman had none of the skills, and no useful knowledge... he was a true ******** artist. Furthermore, his team of sycophants had no idea what they were doing. None had any credible background in expedition diving; and they opted not to listen to anyone who did. Sorry to be so blunt but let's not rewrite that particularly tacky chapter of history.

 

[Bob DBF]

Yeah that's it. There are no course materials for good judgement.

My dad didn't have any course materials for good judgement, but it was required, in addition to appropriate skills shown over time, before I drove vehicles, used firearms, or went SCUBA diving, among others.

There are no course materials for good judgement in SCUBA because good judgement is not considered a skill, I disagree but I don't own an agency. That was the one of the reasons for an instructor and a long course, so the instructor could take the time to evaluate and decide if your judgement and actions would be a danger to yourself or others while diving. A card was not given to a student just because they passed the written test and skills, possibly from several different instructors.

I went to OW class after 17 years of diving, I was informed by the OW instructor that I was going to be held to a higher standard than the rest of the class, and if I didn't measure up to that standard, I would not get a card. In other words show better skills and judgement during training.

Good judgement is just good judgement.

Agreed, and we need more of it around.



Bob