Buying mid - high end regulator vs replacing it every few years

[happy-diver]

Here are some regs 30-50 years old with which I sometimes conduct what some would term tech dives

but these rarely go below 50 metres

With the Scubapro regs rebuilt with parts from todays 'high end' models

 

[MichaelMc]

I guess the reason why I used the car analogy, was that to me (at least from a recreational diver's standpoint), is able to dive safely without the need for large investment, and the picking up groceries example was what I had in mind. I'm sure the high end reg and a M3 would be more enjoyable regardless of what type of diving/driving, but so would the maintenance cost (if not DIY). And the main point of the thread, is to see if that overall long term ownership cost would justify it, vs just buying a new one (and forget about the hassle/cost of getting it serviced). A high end reg would probably give you 10 - 20% easier breathing under deep/cold water, but above 80 feet, I don't think the difference would be noticeable, if any (correct me if I'm wrong since I've only heard this from others, as I don't own a high end one). And for those of us who live in a small apartment with limited space, DIY might not work since we don't have space to store a tank.

I think the car analogy can be applied to regs perfectly. There are people who loves driving sporty cars like M3 whether to work (diving for work), racing (technical diving) or groceries (recreational diving). And there are people who likes to have a low maintenance, reliable car from point A to point B just for weekend groceries. Over half of the experienced recreational divers whom I've met on dive trips still use rentals. They still enjoy diving as much as those who has their own gears. Then there are those like @Bob DBF who likes to drive his '68 Mustang (vintage regs) for any activities.

A new ScubaPro Mk 2 or Mk 11 and two used SP 109s rebuilt as 156s will get you diving economically for shallow depths. The Mk 2 and 109/156 are also rather bulletproof and have cheap service kits, as there are very few parts involved.

I do not think the service costs for regulators vary as widely as those for basic to high-end cars. On service costs for more higher-end regs, the labor cost is usually the same. Shops generally list a price for labor, independent of the brand or model, plus the service kit cost. The service kit may be more expensive, though it is only a part of the overall service cost when done by a shop for you.

Analogies have many shortcomings, I'll bow out of disecting this one further after one last brief shot at it. You said for you, as a rec diver, picking up the groceries was what you had in mind for diving. A car that stalls at half the lights and has no A/C in summer Arizona heat will get the groceries. But the hour you spend in it to and from the store will be very unpleasant. While the hour you spend underwater you might want to be pleasant, that is after all the point of being there. Unless your goal is 'dove underwater, check that off the list.' In which case, yes, the car grocery analogy makes sense and you should analyze your best cost to dive over many years without any factor in the analysis of whether you are having fun doing it, recreationally. That is why I think the car analogy breaks down.

I am not saying you need an uber regulator.

 

[Joris Vd]

The apeks xl4 is dirt cheap for what you get. (330 euros in Belgium for first+second).
Scubapro mk11 c370 super solid as well
Same goes for mares dual 15x (sub 300 euro).

If you want a Future proof reg go for a turret reg so you can basically use it as a stage,and for backmount and sidemount.

These will have you covered for any 'standard' diving you can do.

90% of divers basically dive regs that outperform their diving needs by miles.
For the type of diving you do, any reg on the market will do.

My main buddy actually dives the 15x year round for all dives down to temps of 50f and up to 140-150 feet. It's just not as flashy as an apeks, atomic or other premium reg.

Sealed diaphragm is a safe bet, but unless you're diving sub 45 temps, a non sealed one should be fine as well. On the maintenance part you can't beat sealed diaphragm though. If you're sloppy, don't get unsealed regs imo.

One thing: don't go for the new legend. They gave the first some extra heat sink and bumped the price by 150 euros.

 

[lowwall]

The car analogy really doesn't work for regs. There is a much, much larger range in quality and features for cars than regs.

Regs are tools. Tools that all meet the same set of requirements and all use variations of less than a handful of designs that have been around for decades. The differences in performance and function are minor and only really become pronounced at extremes of temperature or depth.

Because the performance differences are so minor, non-tangible factors become much more important such as ease of getting service (or getting parts for self-service), port locations, cosmetics, and brand loyalty.

If you really want to make a car analogy, then a valid one would be between hydraulic-assist steering systems for modern cars. You've got your balanced diaphragm (rack and pinion) and your piston (recirculating ball), and they have slightly different feel. But they are all proven mechanical designs that are safe and reliable.

 

[Bob DBF]

Bob, how do you keep up with maintenance on all those regs?! And from your experience, do you notice any difference in terms of breathability between an old (over 2 decades ago) reg vs a modern budget one vs a modern high end one (like the Atomic or Scubapro ones)?

I work on regs when they need it or I'm really bored, and with occasional use, regs will last a long time without attention. I've worked and tinkered with equipment all my life and working on scuba gear is just another facet.

As far as breathability, my problem is that I started a long time ago with unbalanced regs of questionable heritage, so if I am getting air I'm a happy camper. That includes my time doing deep air deco. It's a different mindset than being picky on how easy a reg breathes. But I had less choice back in the day.

The newer regs I've tried seem to breathe about the same as my Sherwood 2009 blizzard first and SP 109 second, but tuning and my attitude about air underwater could be the difference. However the Sherwood 4000 gives them a run for the money, and the old Cyclon would be my choice past rec limits.

Anything balanced is better than unbalanced, although when the unbalanced reg is well tuned, one may not notice the difference. Deeper than rec limits is where the difference will become more apparent, but I'm not making many of those dives anymore, sucks getting old.

 

[noctshadow]

The car analogy really doesn't work for regs. There is a much, much larger range in quality and features for cars than regs.

Regs are tools. Tools that all meet the same set of requirements and all use variations of less than a handful of designs that have been around for decades. The differences in performance and function are minor and only really become pronounced at extremes of temperature or depth.

Because the performance differences are so minor, non-tangible factors become much more important such as ease of getting service (or getting parts for self-service), port locations, cosmetics, and brand loyalty.

If you really want to make a car analogy, then a valid one would be between hydraulic-assist steering systems for modern cars. You've got your balanced diaphragm (rack and pinion) and your piston (recirculating ball), and they have slightly different feel. But they are all proven mechanical designs that are safe and reliable.

In terms of car analogy, I was thinking about a Corolla vs a Civic vs others (such as M3). Diaphragm and piston is just like automatic vs manual transmission. Some prefer one over another, but most prefer automatic (balanced diaphragm). A new Corolla and Civic are very similar and meet all the safety requirements and have the standard features set of a modern car, and their different is so minimal that one can easily buy one or the other, based on the styling, headlights, taillights (the non-tangible you mentioned). When you have venturi, env sealed, and cold water, those are extra features like heated seat, powered roof, and stuff. All those extra features would be standards on a M3 or Lexus. And there's minimal requirement (able to breathe underwater) on all regs vs the extra bells and whistles. When you take all the features away including branding and strip it down to the bare minimum, can you still say a high end reg is a must have, when budget reg does the same job for grocery runs?

 

[lowwall]

If divers really preferred automatics, they'd join me in diving classic and standard Mares seconds featuring VAD instead of settling for regs that require switches, levers, and dials to handle changing conditions

But again, the disparity between regs is much smaller than the disparity between something like a base Civic and an M3. The range is more like from a Civic Type R to an M3. The reason is that current standards are so high that the average performers of yesteryear can't make the cut. If you buy a new reg, it's going to meet the European EAN250 standard which sets maximums for breathing effort and minimums for stability while providing sufficient air for two heavy breathing divers at the pressure equivalent of 50m (164').

Most of what separates a $400 diaphragm regset from a $1200 diaphragm regset is recouping marketing costs and markup. With only a few exceptions (Poseidon and umm?), they use the same materials and the same design principles. The only differentiating technical features are number and location of ports, whether the reg is suited for use in very cold water, and perhaps for metal as opposed to plastic bodied seconds.

 

[noctshadow]

A new ScubaPro Mk 2 or Mk 11 and two used SP 109s rebuilt as 156s will get you diving economically for shallow depths. The Mk 2 and 109/156 are also rather bulletproof and have cheap service kits, as there are very few parts involved.

I do not think the service costs for regulators vary as widely as those for basic to high-end cars. On service costs for more higher-end regs, the labor cost is usually the same. Shops generally list a price for labor, independent of the brand or model, plus the service kit cost. The service kit may be more expensive, though it is only a part of the overall service cost when done by a shop for you.

Analogies have many shortcomings, I'll bow out of disecting this one further after one last brief shot at it. You said for you, as a rec diver, picking up the groceries was what you had in mind for diving. A car that stalls at half the lights and has no A/C in summer Arizona heat will get the groceries. But the hour you spend in it to and from the store will be very unpleasant. While the hour you spend underwater you might want to be pleasant, that is after all the point of being there. Unless your goal is 'dove underwater, check that off the list.' In which case, yes, the car grocery analogy makes sense and you should analyze your best cost to dive over many years without any factor in the analysis of whether you are having fun doing it, recreationally. That is why I think the car analogy breaks down.

I am not saying you need an uber regulator.

Thanks! I'll check out the MK 1 or 11, since it's been mentioned a few times by other divers. And it sounds easy to maintain.

The point of the analogy is compared buying a new, well-known, budget regulator, same as a new, well-known budget car, not a beat-up half dead car with no A/C. As mentioned, think of a 2020 Corolla. So your example is a bit extreme. Based on the previous responses, I think you're still suggesting that higher end reg = more fun, and anyone who's using a budget/rental type reg is not going to enjoy diving as much as someone who's using a Poseidon or Atomic, with all else being equal. That I don't think I can agree with.

 

[noctshadow]

IIf you buy a new reg, it's going to meet the European EAN250 standard which sets maximums for breathing effort and minimums for stability while providing sufficient air for two heavy breathing divers at the pressure equivalent of 50m (164').

Most of what separates a $400 diaphragm regset from a $1200 diaphragm regset is recouping marketing costs and markup. With only a few exceptions (Poseidon and umm?), they use the same materials and the same design principles. The only differentiating technical features are number and location of ports, whether the reg is suited for use in very cold water, and perhaps for metal as opposed to plastic bodied seconds.

That's actually exactly what I meant. Because even the new, budget regs meet the standards nowadays, is there really a need to go higher end, besides those extra nice-to-have features. And with new technologies in the high end line being trickling down to the lower end line (just like how all new cars have back-up camera, A/C, powered windows now), is there a need for a rec divers to go higher end and service it, vs buying new one every few years with new tech being added that probably satisfy 90% of the rec divers out there?

 

[MichaelMc]

Based on the previous responses, I think you're still suggesting that higher end reg = more fun, and anyone who's using a budget/rental type reg is not going to enjoy diving as much as someone who's using a Poseidon or Atomic, with all else being equal. That I don't think I can agree with.

Breathing rapidly as you race along the reef or kelp forest at depth just for the fun of it,
and noticing nothing about your breathing.

vs.

Having the reg:
- whine when you breath normally
- take perceivable or significant effort when you breathe normally
- not let you breathe rapidly, as the breathing resistance goes up too much, whether to race along the reef for fun or because you just panicked about something.

But:

Again, there are many good regs that are not that expensive. Deep6 Signature is high on that list.