Buddy in trouble---leave or stay?

[bamafan]

Dude in Sawdust they would be a liability. You can get turned around but they can't. What are you going to do when they are between you and the exit? Go check it out for yourself and feel free to take you and your buddy in there. A cave like that I am not going in with anyone else. You are free to do so if you think it is safer. There are other caves but since this one is just across the river from one of the most popular cave diving sites in Florida I figured it would be well known.

 

[nimoh]

Dude in Sawdust they would be a liability. You can get turned around but they can't. What are you going to do when they are between you and the exit? Go check it out for yourself and feel free to take you and your buddy in there. A cave like that I am not going in with anyone else. You are free to do so if you think it is safer. There are other caves but since this one is just across the river from one of the most popular cave diving sites in Florida I figured it would be well known.

I have no business being in a cave where turning around is such an issue, so I'll just take your word for it. Sorry if I was coming off as argumentative, it wasn't my intention.

 

[lv2dive]

I'm not discussing whether or not cave instructors should or should not have to prove capability to solo dive - that is a different discussion altogether. Not engaging in that one, and it was NOT the original topic of discussion.

Look, there are plenty of things I CAN do that I don't feel the need TO prove. One of my worst dives was at Ginnie when we got back to the keyhole and the viz in the gallery was all to sh!t. I mean, almost to the point of needing to be on the line. As I recall we had a decent amount of deco where I was thinking, should I be going back in and looking for someone who had a bad day?!??? When we got out we heard an instructor bragging about how he intentionally zero'ed out the viz in the junction room to give his student a real feel for zero viz situations.

I don't think I need to *prove* I can do a solo dive any more than that level of "realism" (crapping out the vis at Gimnie) is required. If my instructors (Mark Messersmith and Dan Patterson), my buddies, and I, trust my ability to get my rear end out of cave if the brown stuff hits the fan, and I'm doing dives where I'm not pushing my comfort levels, then I don't have anything to "prove" with a solo dive in a class.

All that goes along with proper buddy protocol, gas planning, etc [emoji6]

Bill Rennaker told me that he made a very similar suggestion years ago for cave instructor training. He suggested that all instructors should perform a solo dive prior to being permitted to teach. At the time, his suggestion was also met with extreme resistance.
Why? Can it not be expected of a cave instructor that he can perform a simple cave dive on his own, from start to finish?
How is he going to take responsibility for others, if he is not even willing to be fully responsible for himself?

I would be interested in hearing why you consider the idea to be absurd? Surely there must be a reason for not liking the idea?

There should never be the situation where a diver cuts any corners, just because he has the added safety of a buddy or team. A lot of people do just that and the buddy or team becomes an excuse to get extra sloppy with the rules and gas management.
I've now had several people tell me about full cave certified divers, getting guided in Mexico and intentionally breaking thirds.
The motivation for this? Of course they paid a lot for the guide and wanted to get something for their money. With the guides using so little gas, they figured it would be ok and justified and considered him to be their mobile "fill station".
This is an extreme example, but I hope it gives food for thought.

It's time people accept responsibility for themselves, and for others that put their trust in them. A good diver should never be dependant on his team.
A good team consists of good divers that understand this concept. I believe solo diving can be used to shape the mindset and create good divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

When we got out we heard an instructor bragging about how he intentionally zero'ed out the viz in the junction room to give his student a real feel for zero viz situations.

I am not a cave instructor, but I am both an OW and tech instructor who has had liability issues drummed into his head. Imagine the trial for the lawsuit that would inevitably follow an incident that might occur, either with the student or someone else in the area, during such a training exercise. Imagine the instructor trying to convince the jury that what he did was a safe practice consistent with standard cave diving practices. My guess is that it would not go well.

Instructors for all agencies have some latitude in how they instruct, and most agencies allow for some creativity in instructional practices. On the other hand, most agencies have certain practices that must be done a specific way, and they have practices that are expressly forbidden. I would think that intentionally silting out a cave would be a candidate for being forbidden by agency rules.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

When we got out we heard an instructor bragging about how he intentionally zero'ed out the viz in the junction room to give his student a real feel for zero viz situations.

Only a jackass would pull such a stunt with students...

 

[Imbodie]

we have a gold mainline in tourist systems today because of this very situation.

Careful we don't want to offend anyone with the use of THAT word

 

[karstdvr]

When we got out we heard an instructor bragging about how he intentionally zero'ed out the viz in the junction room to give his student a real feel for zero viz situations.

That is cave vandalism-intentional destruction of the cave!!! Anybody that would cause damage to the cave intentionally, needs to be reported, and questionable whether they should be teaching.

 

[lv2dive]

If it happened today or recently I would have reported him, but it was around three years ago and I wasn't sure if it wasn't an uncommon practice with some instructors and I was just ignorant. I'm pretty sure he isn't local.

As far as vandalism, the way he described what he did was something like fanning the top level so it wasn't causing permanent damage to the system. I just walked away at that point.

---------- Post added May 1st, 2015 at 02:03 PM ----------

Wow I don't think I've ever been quoted that many times that quickly. To be honest I was absolutely disgusted with the entire situation and I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the responses bc that was how I felt at the time (except i was wondering if I was being sanctimonious).

 

[boulderjohn]

The idea that the situation I described in the opening post is just like any other lost diver scenario and thus requires no extra training is gnawing at me. I thought that the fact that one of the three incidents I described in the opening post involved an instructor was problematic to that position. I have since learned that two of the people who left their buddies behind under those circumstances were instructors. With everyone seeming to agree that all three acted incorrectly, that indicates this is not a routine example of a lost buddy scenario.

 

[kensuf]

I'm sorry this is gnawing at you. And I can understand why, really we're not just talking about one scenario, but the combination of two.

What were you taught to do in zero vis?

I was taught that I was to get on the line and wait a few moments for the lead diver to make contact. After a few moments, if she had not come, go ahead and make my way to clearer water and wait.

I was also taught continuous touch contact if the diver made contact, but I know others are taught bump and go.

From the point where one made their way to clear water without the lead diver, it's essentially a lost diver drill. You calculate gas and wait.

Regardless, this is one of those scenarios that new buddies need to discuss before getting in the water. If you are the lead diver, and are expecting continuous contact because that is what you were taught, and your buddy was taught "bump and go," you may be in for a surprise when they leave.