Buddy in trouble---leave or stay?

[PfcAJ]

I've been both the guy waiting and the guy in the silt quite a few times.

In both cases 1 minute feels like 10. It's weird.

Gotta slow down. Relax. Be patient. Work through it.

 

[boulderjohn]

Should this be a standard part of the cave training?

 

[kensuf]

Initial thoughts on an "It depends" list:

Amount of Gas: I was taught that the first thing to do in a lost buddy situation is look at your remaining PSI and decide how much gas to budget for the search before leaving for home to prevent a second loss of life. I assume that would be the first step here, as well.

Yes.

Nature of the Silt: Some silt will settle reasonably quickly. In the second case described above, the troubled diver waited until he could see better and was then able to make his way out. Some silt will obscure vision for well past gas supply limits.

Tuesday night I had dinner with the two guys that retrieved the scooter from the recent fatality. They informed me the area where the scooter was found was still silted out with less than 5' visibility when they went in there Monday morning, some fifteen hours after the incident. Some silt just does not settle quickly.

Proximity of Effective Help: If you walked past a couple of the world's most famous cave divers on your way to the cave and got into a siltout 500 feet in, that would be different from a night dive 3,000 feet back with no one else around. This decision making should include how quickly that help could get to your buddy. If you saw a class with a solid instructor getting ready to go, help might be able to get there in a hurry.

My emergency planning would never include "hopefully there's another group in the cave somewhere." This opens up too many variables.

Potential for Active Intervention: In the first case mentioned above, the rescuer tied off a line and went into the totally mucky passage in search of lost divers. When he came upon one, he backed up out of sight, fearing that the diver would see him and grab him in panic. He approached from a different angle to make the rescue. Now, that all requires skill beyond the typical cave diver. Do you feel good enough in your skills to be able to do that sort of thing for your buddy, or are you more likely to create a second victim?

I would say yes, I feel comfortable with that, but I also know not everyone else would.

Scootering Potential: Are you in command of an effective scooter that you are confident will not quit on you and will be able to bring you and possibly your buddy out at a rate that will impact your decision-making relative to the amount of gas you are willing to devote to the effort?

If you are questioning whether or not your scooter will quit on you, then you have made an error on the dive before you ever got into the water. If you do not believe your scooter has enough "oomph" to get you and your buddy out, then either pick option #1 (don't dive), or replace your scooter, or tow enough spares to cover your needs.

Ability to leave help behind: In the second case, the diver was ale to get out on his own, but probably did not have sufficient gas to get to the exit. He knew where other gas was to be found stashed in the cave, and he got it. If I have enough gas to exit on my back or in one sidemount tank, should I leave a stage I am carrying or my other sidemount tank behind in the hope my buddy can use it if he or she gets free? If I have a working scooter but have enough gas to swim out without it, do I leave it behind?

There are a couple of questions here, but all pertain to bailing on your buddy. That's really not an option.

If I have stage bottles that could be left, I go ahead and keep breathing them and wait.

If I have enough gas to swim out, then I have enough gas to stay there longer, and I wait.

Leaving is really not an option unless you've really screwed up to the point where you have little gas left. At that point it's a no-win scenario, but I would try to leave my buddy every possible option.

 

[PfcAJ]

OK, that's still a lot of gas...

But also highlights the problem with the planning. Taking scooters to a silted and narrow passage where buddy loss was probable and not having enough gas to get out on his own while swimming (when loss of scooter is something else to take into account when planning)...

The planning was absolutely bogus. Buddy loss is improbable in that passage unless you drag a scooter in there, and doing the dive on little 85s without stages leaves zero wiggle room.

When I look at gas planning, I tend to think less about 'omg can i share gas if my buddy loses everything!!11!" and more about 'how much time do I have to solve problems' taking into account distance, depth, vis, nav complexity, who im diving with, etc.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I've been in a siltout, I just waited a few minutes and my buddy appeared. It felt like quite a long time, but really it wasn't.

In a major siltout with separation I think the not lost diver should hold on the line a few minutes shining their light toward where they think the lost diver is then head out to clear water and hold out as long as they safely could. There are quite a few what ifs beyond this to notify you've left the cave, lost diver took other tunnel to gold, etc.

Sent via

 

[boulderjohn]

My emergency planning would never include "hopefully there's another group in the cave somewhere." This opens up too many variables.

I was not talking about dive planning. I was talking about deciding what to do in an emergency. Would your decision to stay or go be impacted by just happening to know that there is some really competent assistance a few hundred yards away?

If you are questioning whether or not your scooter will quit on you, then you have made an error on the dive before you ever got into the water. If you do not believe your scooter has enough "oomph" to get you and your buddy out, then either pick option #1 (don't dive), or replace your scooter, or tow enough spares to cover your needs.

I was taught always to assume that the scooter may quit at some point in the dive, and you should therefore always plan to be able to swim out when it does. (Assuming a single scooter.) Thus, if I am waiting for a buddy to emerge (hopefully) from the silt and am watching my gas supply, do I now instead assume that my scooter will get me all the way to the exit when calculating the point at which I give up and leave?

 

[kensuf]

I was not talking about dive planning. I was talking about deciding what to do in an emergency. Would your decision to stay or go be impacted by just happening to know that there is some really competent assistance a few hundred yards away?

I would stay unless I can visually see them. There are too many variables to assume they would be of any help if I went searching for them, and no guarantees that I could actually find them.

I was taught always to assume that the scooter may quit at some point in the dive, and you should therefore always plan to be able to swim out when it does. (Assuming a single scooter.) Thus, if I am waiting for a buddy to emerge (hopefully) from the silt and am watching my gas supply, do I now instead assume that my scooter will get me all the way to the exit when calculating the point at which I give up and leave?

Let me make sure I understand the scenario you're setting up:

Major failure #1 - Something happens requiring us to dip into our gas reserves (your scenario was buddy separation).
Major failure #2 - One of our scooters does not make it, and we need to tow out (if we started with two scooters, we should have two functioning scooters).
Major failure #3 - We've now had a second scooter failure and need to swim out.

Did I understand the scenario you are trying to set up right?

---------- Post added April 30th, 2015 at 02:48 PM ----------

BTW, I've only had two or three real "lost buddy" situations in real life. The only one that took more than 5 to 10 minutes of waiting was the time the guy left and was sitting in the parking lot. These situations are completely avoidable if you're attentive:

1. When you go through a restriction, continue a few feet past and turn and frame the restriction with your light so your buddy can see his way through it, and wait to regroup.

2. If you're in a silt-out, and you know clear water is only a few feet away, move to it and wait for your buddy, shining your light as a beacon. If you think clear water is a haul, wait for a few minutes for your buddy to reconnect with you before moving towards it. If he doesn't reconnect after a couple of minutes, go ahead and move to clear water and then wait for your buddy.

3. If you're leading, and you don't see your buddy's light, cover your light, turn around and look for him.

It's really not that difficult.

 

[boulderjohn]

Did I understand the scenario you are trying to set up right?

No. I am apparently really sucking at communication right now. I am going to describe three scenarios. The first two are just an introduction. The third scenario is the one I am actually asking about.

1. Let's say I am doing a dive with a scooter and there were no problems. As I dive, I make sure that if my scooter were to quit, I would be able to swim out without it. I have a pretty fair idea of how far and how hast that swimming would be. To me, that is a standard part of dive planning with a scooter.

2. Now let's go to a totally different situation. I am waiting for my buddy to emerge from the silt. I don't have a scooter. I am monitoring my gas. I know roughly how much I will need to swim out. I plan to leave when I hit that mark.

3. Now let's go to a combination of the two. I am waiting for my buddy, as in #2, but this time I have a scooter. I am monitoring my gas. I know roughly how much I will need to swim out. I plan to leave when I hit that mark. But I have a scooter! Do I now dip farther into my gas reserves on the assumption that the scooter will carry me--and possibly my buddy--all the way to the exit, all the time knowing that if it fails, I won't make it?

 

[kensuf]

Yes, I understood you.

If you have a scooter then your buddy has a scooter too. So I would wait, and dip into the swimming reserves. If my scooter fails, he tows me. Visa-versa. So in order for you to be in a situation that you're not riding out via scooter, you would have to have two scooter failures.

If you're in a situation where you are starting a dive with one on a scooter and one swimming, then you should have chosen option #1.

BTW -- there are some places where swimming out is never really going to happen. Let's be honest, the reality is the average person is not going to swim 10k out of Manatee, or 4500' out of Indian. But on those dives, you still plan to have enough reserve gas to "swim out" but you also bring spare scooters. That "swim out" reserve gas is to give you time and gas to deal with problems, not really swim out.

 

[Hetland]

I am waiting for my buddy, as in #2, but this time I have a scooter. I am monitoring my gas. I know roughly how much I will need to swim out. I plan to leave when I hit that mark. But I have a scooter! Do I now dip farther into my gas reserves on the assumption that the scooter will carry me--and possibly my buddy--all the way to the exit, all the time knowing that if it fails, I won't make it?

Swim out and leave the scooter.

If you breathe your reserve and your scooter dies, you're a 2nd victim.
If you dip into reserve, and end up towing TWO divers, possibly sharing gas, you could become a second victim.
If buddy makes it out of silt, he has a scooter he can use, hopefully catching up to you on the way out, but if not, he now has an asset he can use to buy time.

The safest assumption on the buddy's scooter is that it's inoperable.