Buddies kept grabbing/pulling me to ascend faster than computer said was safe

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Wow. You don't seem to understand the definition of theory.


Actually I do. Maybe you don't understand the definition of "Fact".

---------- Post added April 30th, 2015 at 02:59 PM ----------

NO... She was at 90'.... So most of what happened was in the deeper end of the ascent... Fast breathing does not allow the exchange of CO2 that takes place in a normal breathing cycle .. And at this point.... I'm done with this thread...

Jim...

And No, the OP stated that she was doing her safety stop and they were still pulling her up.

If you were only the reading expert like dive expert you try to be.....

---------- Post added April 30th, 2015 at 03:02 PM ----------

Looking at this somewhat differently, what should dive buddies do when a dive is thumbed and a member of the team appears reluctant to ascend?


Honestly? You leave them behind. If you are thumbing the dive, you have your reasons. And your safety is more important then someone that doesn't get that.
 
Doesn't that kind of go against decompression theory? The slowest ascent you can make is a stop. And don't people make stops to off-gas?

I get the whole idea of different tissue loads and unloads at different rates. But the ones that are slow to load and unload also won't have as much nitrogen in them.

My understanding is that you can't add a lower partial pressure of nitrogen that has a higher partial pressure. I can go along with the instant you make your ascent you may take on a little more but that should quickly reverse. So my thinking is that you can't ascend too slow unless you only have a couple seconds before your no-deco time is up and you can't get to a shallower depth before you go into deco.

I really want to understand this as it is very interesting to me. So, please don't think I am trolling or starting an argument.

As mentioned in previous posts some slower tissue compartments may still on-gas after ascending from depth. Here is the mathematical example you requested.

P = Po + (Pi - Po)(1 - 2^(-t/HT))

P = final tissue compartment pressure
Po = initial tissue compartment pressure
Pi = Inspired air pressure
t = time at depth (or surface)
HT = tissue compartment half-time

From the Buhlmann ZH-L16 chart in Erik C. Baker's "Understanding M Values" the half-times from compartments 2 and 10 are:

2 = 8.0 minutes
10 = 146 minutes

Using the constant depth version of the Schreiner equation (shown above) we can calculate the P values for the following dive profile: descend to 99 ft for 15 minutes, then ascend to 33 ft for 15 minutes. I will work out the solution using minutes for t and atmospheres absolute for pressure. For this example I will neglect loadings on descent and ascent and assume an instantaneous depth change. To keep things simple I will ignore the water vapor pressure and make the inspired pressure equal to ambient pressure. P(n) = pressure for tissue compartment n.

At 99 ft Po = 1 atm (we were at the surface), Pi = the pressure at 99 ft. Solving for P:

P(2) = 1 + (4 - 1)(1 - 2^(-15/8)) = 1 + 5(1 - 0.27) = 1 + 3.65 = 4.65 atm
P(10) = 1 + (4 - 1)(1 - 2^(-15/146)) = 1 + 5(1 - 0.93) = 1 + 0.35 = 1.35 atm

Ascend to 33 ft for 15 minutes. Po becomes P from the previous segment of the dive. Pi = the pressure at 33 ft. Solving for P:

P(2) = 4.65 + (2 - 4.65)(1 - 2^(-15/8)) = 4.65 - 2.65(1 - 0.27) = 4.65 - 1.93 = 2.72 atm
P(10) = 1.35 + (2 - 1.35)(1 - 2^(-15/146)) = 1.35 + 0.65(1 - 0.93) = 1.35 + 0.11 = 1.46 atm

After ascending to 33 ft from 99 ft compartment 2 off-gassed from 4.65 to 2.72 atm. However, compartment 10, a much slower tissue compartment is still on-gassing from 1.35 to 1.46 atm.
 
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/mod hat on/

And once more folks - there has been a lot of interesting, informative discussion here, but there has been a lot of unpleasantness and it's great that we have some super-scientifically minded members posting information - and I genuinely mean that - but we have to go back to the terms of the Basic Scuba Discussions forum which is friendly, flame-free and well - er - basic.

The moderators aren't here to stifle discussion and debate but there are forums more appropriate for some of the posts we're seeing here and yes - I'm going to go back and moderate some of my own posts because - well, we all make mistakes in the heat of the moment and whatnot but please - let's keep it simple, and Basic.

/mod hat off/

Cheers,

Crowley
 
Honestly? You leave them behind. If you are thumbing the dive, you have your reasons. And your safety is more important then someone that doesn't get that.

No communications? No check to see if there is a problem? Just the fin wave? Would you glance back to update the last known location?
 
The only time I leave someone is if I can not help them and they need more help than I can deliver, if they are doing something dangerous that I want nothing to do with or I am running out of air or can not keep the pace - but always with communication even if they are not looking as in they are so far ahead it is worthless to gesture. The OP was doing neither from what I can tell - so there really is no need to abandon a buddy.

At least when I buddy up - I make the effort to stick it out because I expect the same in return. However - I am ready and able to take care of myself should I find myself solo.
 


---------- Post added April 30th, 2015 at 02:59 PM ----------
We started to ascend and at first I was having trouble going up because I had emptied all my air (found out I shouldn't do that later in the day) and was only ascending as fast as my computer told me too. He kept motioning for me to go faster but i listened to my computer. Because he kept motioning I started going up faster until my computer started beeping at me. So I slowed down within my computers range. He then grabbed my hand and started pulling me up. It really freaked my out because my computer beeped and said "ascent too fast". I pulled my hand out of his grasp. He then started gesturing for me to go faster and I kept pointing at my computer. He grabbed my hand 2-3 times more and I kept pulling my arm out of his grasp. By this time I am really freaking out because the other guy is starting to get close and keeps motioning for me to go faster. Finally they back off and I try to do a safety stop. Within about a minute they are motioning for me to come up. I then sense someone behind me and could feel him grabbing my gear because I felt a pull. After that it's hazy because I was so freaked out, but I remember that they did back off. But when they kept grabbing on to me I just went up because I was really panicking. My ears were killing me because I had not had a chance to clear them.


And No, the OP stated that she was doing her safety stop and they were still pulling her up.

If you were only the reading expert like dive expert you try to be.

You need to go back and read the post... I even copied and pasted it for you.... And I'm really done now.... DOOR....

Jim....
 
If another diver tried to pull me up against my will, and wouldn't back off, I would view that as an assault and respond accordingly.
 
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Can I just point out that her buddy had a slate and, if there was a particular problem he was concerned about, he could have communicated it.

He had led her away from the main group (apparently without discussing the plan to do so in advance), which would have been stressful for a new diver on her second ever deep dive and may have contributed to the rapid air use.
Then, instead of communicating any particular problem during ascent, which he was equipped to do, he repeatedly harassed her into a state of panic. In what world is that okay?
Whatever risks there may have been from any suboptimal buoyancy control, subtleties of decompression theory, or fast air use, those risks would be less significant than having a panicked diver. Or those risks would be greatly exacerbated by panic.
 
/mod hat on/

efx:
As mentioned in previous posts some slower tissue compartments may still on-gas after ascending from depth. Here is the mathematical example you requested.

And once more folks - there has been a lot of interesting, informative discussion here, but there has been a lot of unpleasantness and it's great that we have some super-scientifically minded members posting information - and I genuinely mean that - but we have to go back to the terms of the Basic Scuba Discussions forum which is friendly, flame-free and well - er - basic. ...... - please let's keep it simple, and Basic.

/mod hat off/Crowley

I have to assume that since your response comes on the heels of my post that I'm lumped in with the "super-scientific", although I would never apply that moniker to myself. I thought that the restrictions on content applied to what is originally posted not what is (and sometimes needs to be) posted in response. I didn't jack up the brain food on my own accord -- I was responding to an off-topic request for specific information. Some subject matter is complicated -- decompression theory is one of them. If the math is what makes my response "not basic" than I don't see any way to answer the posters request. If we have to restrict our answers to "basics" for such complicated topics, I don't see how any of us can respond without looking like blathering idiots. But hey.... you have the power. Simply move our responses to the advanced forum and label it "Not for basic and new divers -- you might learn something new".
 
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Can I just point out that her buddy had a slate and, if there was a particular problem he was concerned about, he could have communicated it.

Sure, he could have taken out his slate and written "Why don't you stop blocking the mooring line and get out of the way of divers behind you." Do you really think that is the best way to handle such a situation?

It seems to me the OP is lacking in some basic skills and unaware of what is going on around her. No one tried to drag her to the surface. If that were the case, she would not have been able to simply pull her hand away. Perhaps everyone would have been happier if they just left her on her own - as long as she made it back to the boat OK.

Dragging someone to the surface who is under there own control is not normally acceptable. Physically assisting an unaware diver who may be a danger to themselves and/or interfering with other dives should have its rightful place in scuba.

I tend to doubt that the OP had any more skills in operating her computer or managing her dive than she had in operating her BCD. I suspect she should be thanking her buddies rather than criticizing them.
 
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