Breathing off the BC

[Popeye]

NetDoc once bubbled...
Also, I know of no instructors who teach, encourage or condone bladder breathing during an ESA due to an OOA. None. Some have even come out within this thread opposed to this concept.

Instructors like you, as an example, and that statement is crystal clear.

Furthermore, we have had testimony from medical doctors as the dangers inherent in such a maneuver. I currently know of no doctors who perform, encourage or condone bladder breathing during an ESA due to an OOA either. There has to be something to this.

And doctors, because they're doctors, are experts in scuba technique, how, exactly?

Many of them don't even qualify as experts in scuba medicine.

Oh, and, "doctors" is plural, and you need to look up "'inherent" (fins can help). No such statement was made, nor will it be.

Testimony, Whoo Hooo!

So please, for your own safety, evaluate just who is promoting this method before you try it. I don't know their agenda for doing this, and frankly don't care.

Rank paranoia, at this point.

And both our agendas, at this point, are -painfully- obvious to everybody.

You (and the upper crust) don't think anyone (else) is smart enough to decide for themselves how to dive, and I think information that is potentially life saving should be available to each diver to individually assess for risks and benefits.

An uncertified OW student can get a trimix manual from Leisure Pro.

As an instructor I would not want anyone to be harmed trying this risky procedure. You definitely won't catch me putting my life at risk trying it out.

Any "instructor" who couldn't perform this simple task has no business teaching people to dive.

Of course, I post this knowing full well that there might be some wanting to twist everything that I say. What their real agenda is can only be guessed at.

No need, it was pretty twisted when it got here.

Best have another back channel session with the boys, and come up with another "last post".

It's time for the baggage car to take the plunge, as we work towards the caboose.

 

[blacknet]

Popeye once bubbled...
Instructors like you, as an example, and that statement is crystal clear.

And doctors, because they're doctors, are experts in scuba technique, how, exactly?

My My My, are we grump tonight or do we need to take a chill pill. There is a wide variety of expert 'doctors', yes that's PLURAL, on this board that knows their way around scuba better than you do; and I might add they are polite.

Many of them don't even qualify as experts in scuba medicine.

What, pray tell, are your expert criteria in this matter? Please list details as I will pull the references and see for myself.

And both our agendas, at this point, are -painfully- obvious to everybody.

The only 'agenda' I see is an ill attempt at causing a scene, trying to be the problem child. A quote comes to mind “When I was a child I did childish things, when I grew up I put away those childish things” Does anyone see a relation here?

You (and the upper crust) don't think anyone (else) is smart enough to decide for themselves how to dive, and I think information that is potentially life saving should be available to each diver to individually assess for risks and benefits.

An uncertified OW student can get a trimix manual from Leisure Pro.

Any "instructor" who couldn't perform this simple task has no business teaching people to dive.

Please provide detail of any cert agency that teaches this to students. Please provide passages from the SOP handbook(s) on pass/fail requirements. Please provide for us names of instructors who teach this skill to students and detail for us the requirements of pass/fail in this manner.

What I’m asking here is simple; put up or shut up. It's real easy to fall into the traps that plague online users, this trap is the old classic 'lets give lip service and give nothing to back it up.' I think you should change the handle to barracuda, it would be very fitting.

Ed

 

[Popeye]

blacknet once bubbled...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Popeye once bubbled...
Instructors like you, as an example, and that statement is crystal clear.

And doctors, because they're doctors, are experts in scuba technique, how, exactly?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My My My, are we grump tonight or do we need to take a chill pill. There is a wide variety of expert 'doctors', yes that's PLURAL, on this board that knows their way around scuba better than you do; and I might add they are polite.

"Furthermore, we have had testimony from medical doctors as the dangers inherent in such a maneuver."-NetDoc

" I currently know of no doctors who perform, encourage or condone bladder breathing during an ESA due to an OOA either."-NetDoc

Show me the "There is a wide variety of expert 'doctors', yes that's PLURAL" involved in this thread, who "testified" to dangers that were "inherent" to BC breathing.

Were you even sober when you penned this gross inaccuracy?

Prove NetDoc's second statement, that being a medical doctor in some way implied expertise in rudimentary scuba training drills.

I must have missed that episode of ER.

Explain why you feel, as you obviously do, that a medical doctor can make a better decision than a competent certified diver as to whether this procedure has any value, and how that doctor could come to that conclusion with clinical EVIDENCE?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many of them don't even qualify as experts in scuba medicine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What, pray tell, are your expert criteria in this matter? Please list details as I will pull the references and see for myself.

Since you know them all, provide us with a list of MDs from the group, and correlate how many of them are listed with Diver's Alert Network as dive medicine specialists.

Then, show us which ones posted in this thread, offering, by their own declaration, actual -medical advice-, instead of theoretical opinion.

I won't, er, hold my breath.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And both our agendas, at this point, are -painfully- obvious to everybody.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The only 'agenda' I see is an ill attempt at causing a scene, trying to be the problem child. A quote comes to mind “When I was a child I did childish things, when I grew up I put away those childish things” Does anyone see a relation here?

Yet, how do you explain your entire outburst? It seems rather hypocritical to initiate a grossly inaccurate off topic personal attack on me, then make the above statement, don't you think?.

Perhaps you can explain that for the group, and tell us what -your- "agenda" is.

I'm defending the freedom of choice of the average diver, while you defend the elitists who contend that the peasants will injure themselves if they try to think (and your group buddys. Do they have a name like the "skulls", or a secret handshake?)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You (and the upper crust) don't think anyone (else) is smart enough to decide for themselves how to dive, and I think information that is potentially life saving should be available to each diver to individually assess for risks and benefits.

An uncertified OW student can get a trimix manual from Leisure Pro.

Any "instructor" who couldn't perform this simple task has no business teaching people to dive.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please provide detail of any cert agency that teaches this to students. Please provide passages from the SOP handbook(s) on pass/fail requirements. Please provide for us names of instructors who teach this skill to students and detail for us the requirements of pass/fail in this manner.

After you explain the relevance to the argument, sure. You need to stick to your manuals, so they can tell you how to dive. That you would insinuate that every aspect of your diving is out of a manual simply shows a marked lack of imagination, and a probable inadequacy to deal with any underwater situation that hasn't been written about. While the upper crust stated, then recanted, that one agency taught this technique, I have never implied any such thing. I don't -need- and agency's permission, and neither does anyone else.

I have half a dozen mods to my gear that you'll never find in any agency book.

Furthermore, your vaunted agencies don't even agree with each other, on a variety of requirements, techniques and even age limits, as recently evidenced with your exchange with Roak (who was right, BTW)

Hardly a united front for you to point to.

What I’m asking here is simple; put up or shut up. It's real easy to fall into the traps that plague online users, this trap is the old classic 'lets give lip service and give nothing to back it up.' I think you should change the handle to barracuda, it would be very fitting.

Then try and keep up. All this has been explained repeatedly, and scrutinized extensively throughout the entire thread.

Your entire hyperbolic ad hominem attack is the exact pathetic action that you've incorrectly accused me of.

Any diver here that has met and dived with me (and that number will grow), has and will come to my defense, exhibited as recently as this weekend in the "Truth is out there" thread.

You need to stick to your moderated chat room, because you can't handle it out here.

And try and keep your personal attack on PM, you know, like NetDoc does.

 

[Windwalker]

Wow, This thread has really taken off.

Okay.. here is my .02. Keep in mind, I am not quoting anything, I am not a SCUBA teacher or anything remote. I am somewhat of a newbie.

With that out of the way. Here is my take on BC Breathing.

for these purposes lets take the stance that another diver, buddy or no, is not around.

I'm at 75 feet and out of air. What would I do...
I would do anything to get to the surface alive.

This would include, Dumping weights, Trying to get air out of my second stage as I ascend, If it doesn't and I feel like I am going to pass out on my way up, the I will try and find air whereever I can get it. This could include; Bumming Air from a wayward Dolphin :shamu:, Breathing from my BC, Slurping up any air in my wetsuit (or drysuit) etc.

However, Considering that Air expands as one gets closer to the surface, I honestly believe that I would be able to make it to the surface with whatever is in my lungs. (having practiced this from 60 feet).

If I managed to get tangled in something down underwater, I would probably turn into a two handed quisinart with my K-bar and Divers tool. If I lived (following the fore mentioned get air from anywhere) I would probably shoot myself for getting tangled in the first place. :wacko:

I am sure many people are going to have a problem with what I have to say, but for me, it boils down too.. Do anything to survive.. Don't panic, stay in control, and think.

Let the Flames.. Begin!

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

I did quote passages, cite references and called you out first. It is illogical, and moronic, to demand that I present more evidence when you have yet to produce any single piece of evidence in any fashion. The only thing that comes to the board is belittlement.

I am simply defending the defacto standards that you will find thru out the scuba world, be it recreational, commercial, military, technical or scientific. Until you can provide the proof that we require we just assume you are trolling and upon continued efforts in this pattern will have to be treated as one.

The post that I made initially went with out comment, except for roakey who was brave enough to question it and I might add, have some good points to say about it.

The bare facts remain as following:

A) No training agency in the world will condone an action that they feel will cause them liability, potentially lead to legal action and potentially harm if not kill the diver.

B) People will continue to do 'mods' to whichever device and/or technique they see fit. This doesn’t' mean it's a ‘bad’ or a 'good' thing, it's an individual thing. Some can be considered reckless endangerment while others come to make standards and/or new products.

C) Arguments to this troll topic remains opinionated and diverse. To harass, as in the current path taken, is to show the ignorance and unwillingness of the person to constructively peruse any intelligent conversation.

D) Forcing unsanctioned 'mods' onto the mass diving public is obscene and very rude natured. Better methods can be sought to enlighten the masses.

This topic has strayed from its original direction into harassment and now has nothing to do with its origins, or so it seems. Playing the name calling routine only inflames the reader(s) (yes that's plural) and causes less audience participation. I also vote that this topic be closed from further postings as it's neither enlightening nor constructive.

Ed

 

[Popeye]

Popeye once bubbled...

blacknet once bubbled...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Popeye once bubbled...
Instructors like you, as an example, and that statement is crystal clear.

And doctors, because they're doctors, are experts in scuba technique, how, exactly?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My My My, are we grump tonight or do we need to take a chill pill. There is a wide variety of expert 'doctors', yes that's PLURAL, on this board that knows their way around scuba better than you do; and I might add they are polite.

"Furthermore, we have had testimony from medical doctors as the dangers inherent in such a maneuver."-NetDoc

" I currently know of no doctors who perform, encourage or condone bladder breathing during an ESA due to an OOA either."-NetDoc

Show me the "There is a wide variety of expert 'doctors', yes that's PLURAL" involved in this thread, who "testified" to dangers that were "inherent" to BC breathing.

Were you even sober when you penned this gross inaccuracy?

And try and keep your personal attack on PM, you know, like NetDoc does.

Oops.

"Such a diver could use his BC as a counterlung during the ascent with a lot of practice but without a need for deco stops why should he practice (or perform) a drill that carries an added risk of uncontrolled bouyant ascent or worse;- losing any residual buoyancy in the BC by exhaling it into the water.

In fact I have practiced using the BC to breath from as an additional alternative air source, (also as a rebreather in the pool alone), and it works with practice but is it really necessary?"

Dr Paul

And in fact, Dr Paul was the -only- (yes that's PLURAL) MD to comment on BC breathing, never voicing any medical concern, only that of task loading. And he is an experienced diver, and well entitled to his opinion. As a diver. Just like you and I.

This would make NetDoc's allegations, and thusly yours by extension, -totally false-.

Now one would wonder, after all the ad hom, were these inaccuracies accidental or not?

And talk about twisting words... shazam!

What was that you were saying about little boys?

I think the express just followed the local over the side.

 

[Popeye]

blacknet once bubbled...

Hello,

I did quote passages, cite references and called you out first. It is illogical, and moronic, to demand that I present more evidence when you have yet to produce any single piece of evidence in any fashion. The only thing that comes to the board is belittlement.

I suggested an idea, and attributed it to no entity.

I have nothing to prove or justify.

Try it, or don't, my only suggestions.

Those who actively investigate this method, and choose not to adopt it, impress me.

Those afraid because they can't find it in the rulebook don't.

You have made patently false statements and exaggerations that are gross to the point of negligence.

And refuse to back them up.


I am simply defending the defacto standards that you will find thru out the scuba world, be it recreational, commercial, military, technical or scientific. Until you can provide the proof that we require we just assume you are trolling and upon continued efforts in this pattern will have to be treated as one.

You have no concept of what trolling is, and you have no aegis to "require" proof of anything from me.

Those who choose to, and aren't afraid of their own shadows, are already asking how to try this technique.

And we can see you have a defacto type mentality.

The post that I made initially went with out comment, except for roakey who was brave enough to question it and I might add, have some good points to say about it.

No one cared, except Roak, who corrected your inanity, to which you replied (in an incredible display of flexible thinking): "The excert that I posted is the technically correct method, anything else is a dead issue. My post failed to address solo diving, in which case you bring a seperate air source, i.e. pony bottle, nuff said."

Ed

What a maroon

BTW, can you reference your above solo diving comment from the NOAA manual?

 

[Davey Diverson]

blacknet once bubbled...
I did quote passages, cite references and called you out first. It is illogical, and moronic, to demand that I present more evidence when you have yet to produce any single piece of evidence in any fashion.

I believe the point Popeye is making is that you have provided cites, references, and quotes, none of which are breathable at depth.

Falling back on authority is exactly what he's not doing, nor should you, nor shouild anyone else. If I'm out of air, the wing might provide another breath, and therefore, another shot at the surface. Dismissing out of hand because you have a stack of quotes is pretty silly.

I'm NAUI certed, and I don't care what their books say when I'm in the water.

Let me ask the question another way. At what point during an OOA emergency are you just screwed, and resigned to drowning?

 

[Popeye]

Windwalker once bubbled...
Wow, This thread has really taken off.

With that out of the way. Here is my take on BC Breathing.

for these purposes lets take the stance that another diver, buddy or no, is not around.

I'm at 75 feet and out of air. What would I do...
I would do anything to get to the surface alive.

Even if it ain't in the NOAA manual? HERESY!

This would include, Dumping weights, Trying to get air out of my second stage as I ascend, If it doesn't and I feel like I am going to pass out on my way up, the I will try and find air whereever I can get it. This could include; Bumming Air from a wayward Dolphin :shamu:, Breathing from my BC, Slurping up any air in my wetsuit (or drysuit) etc.

Me too, must be a Jarhead thing.

That dolphin thing may already be a PADI specialty, tho.

However, Considering that Air expands as one gets closer to the surface, I honestly believe that I would be able to make it to the surface with whatever is in my lungs. (having practiced this from 60 feet).

I agree completely. The chances that you'll ever have to ESA are remote, and that you'll have to breathe your BC are even more remote, but -at that time-, a little proficiency in the manuver would be a benefit.

If I managed to get tangled in something down underwater, I would probably turn into a two handed quisinart with my K-bar and Divers tool. If I lived (following the fore mentioned get air from anywhere) I would probably shoot myself for getting tangled in the first place. :wacko:

I am sure many people are going to have a problem with what I have to say, but for me, it boils down too.. Do anything to survive.. Don't panic, stay in control, and think.

Let the Flames.. Begin!

Sounds good to me, Dude.

 

[Popeye]

Davey Diverson once bubbled...


"You have provided cites, references, and quotes, none of which are breathable at depth."


That is quite possibly the most profound wisdom ever offered to Scuba Board.

Kudos to Davey