Excellent start!
Now I think I'm supposed to point out, and say something like:
Jane, you ignorant [*ahem*], that's supposed to be "There WERE no dolphins..."
Roak
Breathing off the BC
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Now I think I'm supposed to point out, and say something like:
Roak
The Hamburger
Guest
Roakey,
Isn't there a good argument to say that an Orca is a Dolphin?
NetDoc I find it hard to believe that you cannot conceive of any scenario where you would have an OOA situation.
I think your 9 pieces of advice are excellent , but even then I can think of an OOA scenario.
Cheers
Isn't there a good argument to say that an Orca is a Dolphin?
NetDoc I find it hard to believe that you cannot conceive of any scenario where you would have an OOA situation.
I think your 9 pieces of advice are excellent , but even then I can think of an OOA scenario.
Cheers
I can think of no such situation that doesn't include gross negligence on the part of the diver and his buddy. Gear failure could precipitate this, but it should never get to an ESA. You should end your dive at the first sign of a malfunction. Get your buddy's air if you have to.
There are a ton of decisions that go into each and every dive. Your gear, having it serviced, your buddy, the location etc, etc. and most importantly YOUR ATTITUDE. Are you attentive to your gauges and your buddy? If the answer is yes, then ESAs are not in your future. If the answer is no, then you like playing underwater Russian roullette. Running out of air at depth is a contraindication to living. I choose life.
What i find interesting in this conversation is some ideas that are generally pushed and agreed upon on this board such as good buoyancy and trim control etc. ......... and many of you can't understand all NetDoc is trying to say is don't be unaware and run out of gas. IMO, every instructor worth his/her salt, teaches and pounds that same simple thought to all their students minds.
If you practice the same situational awareness in monitoring your gas status and your buddies gas status, that you do for buoyancy/ trim/ buddy status etc, your chances of running out of enough gas to make a safe ascent are very, very low.
I'm with ya Popeye, in an OOA situation, you do what you have to survive. However, putting breathing off your B/C, into a new students mind, is dangerous and ill advised IMO for entry level divers. Even for a jarhead!
If you practice the same situational awareness in monitoring your gas status and your buddies gas status, that you do for buoyancy/ trim/ buddy status etc, your chances of running out of enough gas to make a safe ascent are very, very low.
I'm with ya Popeye, in an OOA situation, you do what you have to survive. However, putting breathing off your B/C, into a new students mind, is dangerous and ill advised IMO for entry level divers. Even for a jarhead!
Davey Diverson
Guest
No you didn't. You went back to "Who's on first." We aren't talking about "how not to run out of gas", we are talking about "already ran out of gas."
So now answer the question.
Oh. My. God.
It doesn't make me angry. It does make me curious as to why you're taking such pains to avoid answering the questions, though. Are you afraid there might be something there that conflicts with all your book learnin'?
I also find your attitude toward drowned divers particularly disgusting, but that's orthogonal to the topic.
Davey Diverson
Guest
We're not here to point fingers, we're here to find out if they'll recover your body with air still in the wing. Why won't you tell us?
Things just don't happen. They are a result or accumulation of lots of decisions prior to the incident. Some of these decisions seem innocuous at the time, while some don't.
You have asked "When are you screwed"? My answer predates the incident, but is still relevant. It is the underlying reason for the incident. You are screwed when you decide to not look at your gauges on a continual basis. In this case, what you don't know will kill you! In fact, you are already dead, but just don't realize it. It was your choice, even if it was a decision made through indecision that put you in this situation. You have made the choices that have led to your ultimate demise. For that is the real tragedy... it did not have to happen that way. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Can you make a dramatic comeback? I sure hope so! Your life depends on it. Fight, kick and swim like a scalded monkey back to the surface where there is air, sweet air waiting for you. Is there time to check for air in your bladder? Not for me! I know that once my reg is out of my mouth, any air that is in the tank (and I know that it's there!) will have to purge the valve first before I can breathe it. I am not wasting anything! Especially since I dive so close to neutral that there will only be a little air in my wings. It is simply not an option I would try or teach. Dan or Rodales did research on ESAs and found that speeds up a phenomenal 584 fpm were acceptable when OOA. Could I go that fast? Nope... but at 60 fpm I am a 75 secs from the surface in the original scenario.
As for drowning victims, please don't put words in my mouth or try to divine my feelings about them. I will give you the same courtesy. I believe that all accidents, no matter how tragic, are a result of many decisions with at least some of them being "bad" ones. Many of these decisions are within our control (like speeding) and others are not (like someone else speeding). Eliminate those poor decisions and you eliminate the accident. Pretty simple really.
In other news: I was asked by Hamburger if I could think of any reasons for an OOA and I gave my answer. Sorry if it doesnt make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside or vindicate your sense of injustice here. While it may not have answered YOUR question, it at least answered Hamburger's question (which was the one I was adressing at that time). Somehow I feel that you won't accept any of my answers until such time that I completely agree with you. That will not happen with this issue.
You have asked "When are you screwed"? My answer predates the incident, but is still relevant. It is the underlying reason for the incident. You are screwed when you decide to not look at your gauges on a continual basis. In this case, what you don't know will kill you! In fact, you are already dead, but just don't realize it. It was your choice, even if it was a decision made through indecision that put you in this situation. You have made the choices that have led to your ultimate demise. For that is the real tragedy... it did not have to happen that way. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Can you make a dramatic comeback? I sure hope so! Your life depends on it. Fight, kick and swim like a scalded monkey back to the surface where there is air, sweet air waiting for you. Is there time to check for air in your bladder? Not for me! I know that once my reg is out of my mouth, any air that is in the tank (and I know that it's there!) will have to purge the valve first before I can breathe it. I am not wasting anything! Especially since I dive so close to neutral that there will only be a little air in my wings. It is simply not an option I would try or teach. Dan or Rodales did research on ESAs and found that speeds up a phenomenal 584 fpm were acceptable when OOA. Could I go that fast? Nope... but at 60 fpm I am a 75 secs from the surface in the original scenario.
As for drowning victims, please don't put words in my mouth or try to divine my feelings about them. I will give you the same courtesy. I believe that all accidents, no matter how tragic, are a result of many decisions with at least some of them being "bad" ones. Many of these decisions are within our control (like speeding) and others are not (like someone else speeding). Eliminate those poor decisions and you eliminate the accident. Pretty simple really.
In other news: I was asked by Hamburger if I could think of any reasons for an OOA and I gave my answer. Sorry if it doesnt make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside or vindicate your sense of injustice here. While it may not have answered YOUR question, it at least answered Hamburger's question (which was the one I was adressing at that time). Somehow I feel that you won't accept any of my answers until such time that I completely agree with you. That will not happen with this issue.
Ok, I don't know this for a fact, but this is what I've heard. Can anyone say for sure if this is the case?
I have heard that an LP hose bursting will reduce your IP in the remaining hoses to the point that you can't breathe off a reg.
True or false?
Roak
Ps. Please don't tell me about the small orifice on the HP hose port. The HP hose bursting, though spectacular, I agree is a non-issue.
I have heard that an LP hose bursting will reduce your IP in the remaining hoses to the point that you can't breathe off a reg.
True or false?
Roak
Ps. Please don't tell me about the small orifice on the HP hose port. The HP hose bursting, though spectacular, I agree is a non-issue.
there is a fundamental disagreement here.
'Doc thinks that there is no actual "unavoidable" OOA. But Pete doesn't believe in double failures - because those can, and will, result in a real, honest-to-god OOA that is not anyone's "fault."
(Double failure defined - your first stage fails, and THEN your buddy's does. Or you have TWO first stage failures with redundant kit. Or you have a first state failure AND a buddy who isn't. Etc etc etc.)
I, on the other hand, while accepting that MOST OOAs are due to inattentiveness, accept that double failures DO happen. They are rare, but they occur.
I am unwilling to accept a sentence of certain death when one occurs. I prefer to consider expiring only when no other options remain, irrespective of how "ugly" those options might be.
Roakey - false; it will be EXTREMELY difficult to breathe with a burst LP hose, but it IS possible. For the "maximum effort" take your reg off your tank and inhale through the second stage. You WILL get airflow, but not much.
The bigger problem is that a burst LP hose will drain your air supply EXTREMELY quickly. It is far, far worse than a HP hose failure, which actually drains your tank quite slowly. If you lose an LP hose, you may as well consider your tank gone, irrespective of whether you can get a breath or two, because for all intents and purposes it is.
If you can reach the failure and kink above it you can get the IP up high enough, and slow the air loss enough, to get usable air. But if not (e.g. its at the reg swege) then you're screwed. The bigger problem is that you have - literally - seconds before your tank is empty when this happens.
If you want an object lesson on this take off your second stage from its LP hose, put your reg on a low tank (say, one with 500 psi), secure the hose end so it doesn't thrash around and hit you, and open the valve. Measure the time before the SPG reads "zero". Hint: you'll need a pretty high resolution stopwatch and a quick finger
You can try to breathe off the remaining second stage if you want too - you'll find its barely possible. And oh, by the way, your power inflator won't work worth a hill of beans either.
'Doc thinks that there is no actual "unavoidable" OOA. But Pete doesn't believe in double failures - because those can, and will, result in a real, honest-to-god OOA that is not anyone's "fault."
(Double failure defined - your first stage fails, and THEN your buddy's does. Or you have TWO first stage failures with redundant kit. Or you have a first state failure AND a buddy who isn't. Etc etc etc.)
I, on the other hand, while accepting that MOST OOAs are due to inattentiveness, accept that double failures DO happen. They are rare, but they occur.
I am unwilling to accept a sentence of certain death when one occurs. I prefer to consider expiring only when no other options remain, irrespective of how "ugly" those options might be.
Roakey - false; it will be EXTREMELY difficult to breathe with a burst LP hose, but it IS possible. For the "maximum effort" take your reg off your tank and inhale through the second stage. You WILL get airflow, but not much.
The bigger problem is that a burst LP hose will drain your air supply EXTREMELY quickly. It is far, far worse than a HP hose failure, which actually drains your tank quite slowly. If you lose an LP hose, you may as well consider your tank gone, irrespective of whether you can get a breath or two, because for all intents and purposes it is.
If you can reach the failure and kink above it you can get the IP up high enough, and slow the air loss enough, to get usable air. But if not (e.g. its at the reg swege) then you're screwed. The bigger problem is that you have - literally - seconds before your tank is empty when this happens.
If you want an object lesson on this take off your second stage from its LP hose, put your reg on a low tank (say, one with 500 psi), secure the hose end so it doesn't thrash around and hit you, and open the valve. Measure the time before the SPG reads "zero". Hint: you'll need a pretty high resolution stopwatch and a quick finger
You can try to breathe off the remaining second stage if you want too - you'll find its barely possible. And oh, by the way, your power inflator won't work worth a hill of beans either.
I was a DM for a group going out of WP to dive the Princess Anne. I was checking over gear set-up on some AOW students when I saw an LP hose with a ton of cracking on it. I pointed it out to the student who proceeded to show me just how "strong it was. Well, the hose split right then and there and he scavenged another off of a spare set of regs. I know he lost a tonne of air as his dive ended way early. I remember looking and thinking it was a lot at the time, but I can't remember just how much.
Lesson to be learned? DECIDE to have your gear maintained on a regular schedule. Do a buddy check before each and every dive and tug on each and every hose and breathe out of both of your regs while checking your air before you take the plunge. Decision by indecision is a poor way to plan your diving.
BTW, almost all hose failures I have seen are a result of "percussive maintenance". People let their tanks fall with the gauges on them which can/will do damage to hoses.
Lesson to be learned? DECIDE to have your gear maintained on a regular schedule. Do a buddy check before each and every dive and tug on each and every hose and breathe out of both of your regs while checking your air before you take the plunge. Decision by indecision is a poor way to plan your diving.
BTW, almost all hose failures I have seen are a result of "percussive maintenance". People let their tanks fall with the gauges on them which can/will do damage to hoses.
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