BP/W really OK for a newbie

[djanni]

I'll reply to this post and answer the OP at the same time. l'll definitely promote my BP/W (DSS) since I'm absolutely convinced without even a hint of a doubt that it worked better for me than a "conventional" BC. Why? Because all of those that i tried didn't fit me well at all but my BP/W fits me perfectly. I'm also a newbie. Isn't this a credible response to the original question as to whether a BP is really OK for a newbie? Do i fall into either the category of the evangelist or the real tech diver? I don't think so.

My point Don Janni is that you make it sound as if ALL promotion of BP/Ws is that sort of thing. Well, it isn't. I had some real problems that had to do (as NetDoc pointed out) with comfort and fit and this system solved them. I hope nothing is misleading about that.

Must have been some real crappy BC's that you were wearing. Mine fits like a glove. I'm glad you like your plate. Have fun. Stop worring that you made a bad choice. DSS rigs are some of the better ones. Someday you may even find a use for that plate. I assume TECH is in your future.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Must have been some real crappy BC's that you were wearing. Mine fits like a glove.

Perhaps is was a really nice BCD that just didn't fit right. Proper fit and comfort makes all the difference in the world. With traditional BCDs, you get what you get ... and many people don't have "off the rack" bodies. The inherent customization of a BP/W makes it much easier to adjust to fit your body properly.

I'm glad you like your plate. Have fun. Stop worring that you made a bad choice.

I don't see any "worring" in the post you quoted ... just an honest assessment of gear that the poster actually uses.

DSS rigs are some of the better ones.

How would you know? According to your own posts, it's the only one you've ever tried ... and only for a single warm-water trip. On what do you base the comparison?

Someday you may even find a use for that plate. I assume TECH is in your future.

Assume? I think your experience with a backplate is too limited to apply any real knowledge to that statement.

Don ... as someone who teaches Open Water students in backplates, I think your statement is based more on your own lack of experience and prejudices than on any real knowledge.

If all you're ever gonna do is vacation dive the tropics ... and if you can find one that fits you properly ... a jacket style BCD may be a good choice. And then it's going to depend very much on user preferences. If you are going to dive more temperate climates, wearing a drysuit or thicker wetsuit ... or if you are having difficulties finding a traditional BCD that provides proper fit and comfort ... then a BP/wing may be a better choice. Again, it depends on user preferences.

That's really what it boils down to.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Ron Brandt]

Yes they are...I actually train new students in them. One of my students that I finished Cert'ing on the weekend wanted one like mine and to "set him up" with a good system.

In the last week I have now sold three Oxycheq Wing/BP systems.

Ron

 

[djanni]

How would you know? According to your own posts, it's the only one you've ever tried ... and only for a single warm-water trip. On what do you base the comparison?


Assume? I think your experience with a backplate is too limited to apply any real knowledge to that statement.

Don ... as someone who teaches Open Water students in backplates, I think your statement is based more on your own lack of experience and prejudices than on any real knowledge.

If all you're ever gonna do is vacation dive the tropics ... and if you can find one that fits you properly ... a jacket style BCD may be a good choice. And then it's going to depend very much on user preferences. If you are going to dive more temperate climates, wearing a drysuit or thicker wetsuit ... or if you are having difficulties finding a traditional BCD that provides proper fit and comfort ... then a BP/wing may be a better choice. Again, it depends on user preferences.

That's really what it boils down to.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob: I would never pretend to be as experienced or knowledgable as you are. One of the reasons I put DSS up in the top group is because I thought you thought they were and I thought you recommended them. They sure have a loyal following here on the board.

Buy most standards I'm a novice. I have 141 dives logged. I've never dove in water colder than 69 degrees. I have zero interest in diving with twin tanks, getting into advanced nitrox and trimixes, caves or wreck penetration. I believe there are several BC's that offer more and are more appropriate for a diver with similar interest than a bp/w. Afterall, of all the divers I personally observe about 1 in a 100 wear a bp/w. That has to speak volumes.

 

[LavaSurfer]

Afterall, of all the divers I personally observe about 1 in a 100 wear a bp/w. That has to speak volumes.

Part of the reason, in my opinion, is that "Many" instructors tell students that back inflation devised will put you face down at the surface. I have read this and heard it from many instructors and divemasters. I have been told they are "Not Safe" for inexperienced divers by dive shops, divemasters and Instructors

I think it's monkey hear monkey say because most of them have never used a back inflation device, they just tell you what they have heard.

Also, most LDS's do not carry bp/w. Why? I was told there was no demand. One local shop told me they do not sell well because of the "Stories" about them putting you face first in the water.

I want to clear this up.
They do NOT put you face first in the water!
Not in my experience, In fact, they make rather nice flotation devices that you can float on like a raft on the surface - Face Up!

I was also told when shopping for a BP/W that they are "Only for Tech Diving".
I heard this in three LDS's and several times on the phone and was told to look for a technical dive shop.

 

[*Floater*]

I've never dove in water colder than 69 degrees. I have zero interest in diving with twin tanks, getting into advanced nitrox and trimixes, caves or wreck penetration. I believe there are several BC's that offer more and are more appropriate for a diver with similar interest than a bp/w. Afterall, of all the divers I personally observe about 1 in a 100 wear a bp/w. That has to speak volumes.

Newbies often don't know what type of diving they'll be doing 5 years from now which is one reason why a bp/w system is a solid choice for them imo. I see a lot of people switching from a jacket or back-inflate BCD's to backplate and wing systems, but not so much the other way around.

In Egypt and Philippines I also saw quite a few of them being used by recreational divers. The only drawbacks to hogarthian bp/w in my opinion are that they often cost more (with thigh pockets, boltsnaps, bungee, etc. added in) and can take longer to set up and to get used to. But to each his own.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob: I would never pretend to be as experienced or knowledgable as you are. One of the reasons I put DSS up in the top group is because I thought you thought they were and I thought you recommended them. They sure have a loyal following here on the board.

In fact, I do recommend them ... and I own two DSS plates, as well as one of their newest-design Torus singles wings. I have in the past owned the Torus doubles wing and the LCD singles wing as well. I like them all, and recommend DSS products highly.

However, I base that recommendation on having tried not just DSS products, but those by other manufacturers as well. I tend to purchase equipment, try it, sell it to friends, and try something else ... and I base my statements not on what other people have said, but on what I've experienced myself.

Buy most standards I'm a novice. I have 141 dives logged. I've never dove in water colder than 69 degrees. I have zero interest in diving with twin tanks, getting into advanced nitrox and trimixes, caves or wreck penetration. I believe there are several BC's that offer more and are more appropriate for a diver with similar interest than a bp/w. Afterall, of all the divers I personally observe about 1 in a 100 wear a bp/w. That has to speak volumes.

What you observe is based on where you dive, and the type of diver who generally dives there. It's also based on the fact that people ... especially occasional divers ... tend to purchase what they see their instructor wearing. Problem is that instructors, almost universally, wear what the shop they work for sells. Often they are told to wear the gear that brings the highest markup to the dealer ... since it's all about profits, rather than actually getting the student into gear that will most benefit the student.

That, unfortunately, is the traditional LDS business model. So I wouldn't base my opinions about any given product on what "everybody else" is using. FWIW - the most commonly used products in my area just happen to be those that are sold by the largest chain of dive shops in the area. Do you think that has anything whatsoever to do with quality or functionality? I don't.

However, and getting back to the topic ... when I see someone making statements that imply that backplates are only good for "tech" diving ... and saying so to a new diver who's here looking for real information ... then I have to believe that the person saying so really doesn't understand the product.

Backplates are not just for tech diving ... and they are perfectly fine for the new diver. Depending on the application, they can solve some problems that a traditional-style BCD (jacket or back-inflate) cannot address. And we shouldn't be perpetuating myths simply because the product in question isn't something we, personally, choose to use.

If you're going to offer strong opinions to a new diver, it's helpful to state up-front your experience with the product you are discussing.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[theatis]

Well Don Janni,

Bob's post covered what my reply would be almost specifically (it's an honour!). I just wanted to point out that you did exactly what you charged BP/W ideologues with; you made assumptions, jumped to conclusions, and oh btw, completely disregarded the validity of my statement as a RESPONSE to the OP. This thread isn't about me but if you want to read what specific problems the DSS solved for me and why i never worried (which for some unspecified reason you seem to think is the case) about making that choice here it is: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=122509.

If you take the time to go through that, you'll see that i faced many of the same questions as the OP not long ago. In addition, there were some specific that as i already stated had to with fit and comfort. Among the BCs i tried was the Seaquest Pro Unlimited, by no means a "crappy" BC but it goes for almost $700 on LP without a warranty! If cost (both short-term and long-term) is one of your major considerations in addition to comfort and fit, suddenly my DSS looks like a bargain.

As for finding a use for the BP, i think i've already found two of them: it holds the harness to my body and bolts onto my tank, both pretty successfully!

 

[SangP]

Afterall, of all the divers I personally observe about 1 in a 100 wear a bp/w. That has to speak volumes.

You obviously haven't been diving with anyone other then rec divers. 90% of the divers I know use a BP/W and on most of my trips I regulary see at least 25% with BP/W.

Must have been some real crappy BC's that you were wearing. Mine fits like a glove.

You are either very lucky or don't mind that it doesn't fit perfectly.

I'm glad you like your plate. Have fun. Stop worring that you made a bad choice.

You make it seem that a plate is the next best option... it's not!

Someday you may even find a use for that plate. I assume TECH is in your future.

Does that mean a BP/W can't be used for anything other then TECH??

Like every piece of equipment, it take getting use to and unless you have actually used it before, there isn't a I thought you thought. It's I know cus I have USED em before.

Go try on a few different BP, in SS, Al and with different wings then...

SangP

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I bought my oceanic probe jacket-style bc 2 yrs ago. Have 120 or so dives on it now. Will be going to BP/W here in the next couple of weeks. Why? The type of diving I do and want to do makes it necessary. I will continue to use my probe for ow classes with new students. My instructor has requested this just to make it easier(?) on newbies. Also because we really don't push BP/W at the shop. Our primary gear line does not have BP/W's even though they do have several very nice back-inflates. My BP/W purchase is my way of pushing him into carrying a more tech-oriented line. I have absolutely no complaints about my probe other than it does not fit with the way my dive career path is turning. It has plenty of d-rings, nice pockets and I can dive it w/just a swimsuit or in my shell dry suit. Nowever it does not easily lend itself to my can light, future stage bottles, and double tanks. I take care of my gear and other than a little fading on the reflective trim stripes it looks like a new bc. I have over 120 hours in the pool with it as DM candidate. It has been in cold, hot, low vis, fresh and salt water. And other than an issue with the inflator which oceanic recognized and fixed has done whatever I asked it. It is just getting to the point where it will no longer be able to do all I will ask of it and rather then try to adapt it or change my diving interests it will have to be, not replaced but, supplemented by a new system. Before I also would have advised someone who is only goingto dive 3-5 times a year to rent. Not now. My last trip to fla and seeing a few people have some minor but annoying issues with rental gear convinced me that if you really enjoy this and plan on it being a long term interest then owning your own is the way to go. That 3-5 may soon fall into 4-6 or 5-10 or 50 times a year. You may find yourself wanting to go every weekend or more. Or what about those times when you just want to relax, load the car at the last minute and get wet. If it's on a sunday your lds might not be open or may not have a rental that fits. You do not need to spend 500, 600, or 700 bucks on a bc. Even though we sell them or can get them, to me it's way too much money for most and in some cases for what they offer you are really just paying for the name. And any good quality bc by any major manufacturer should last many years with proper care and maintenance. Or you could be like the yuppies w/too much money and no sense that have to have the latest thing that hits the market and yet don't have the skills to use it or end up with something less than what they thought they were getting.(can you say HUB?) See what your shop uses to certify you. If you like it buy one. If not find a couple people who have different gear and ask them when you are out to try it. Some don't like to do this but others will let you try their rig. And finally remember that ebay is your friend. What you don't like may be just what someone else is looking for.