BP/W & Long Hose In a PADI IE Exam

[demed]

...
On top of that the most recent CPR guidelines for the general public no longer include rescue breaths since without compressions their effectiveness is dubious at best. The option to deliver two breaths upon surfacing is allowed and discussed. That is based on the rescuers judgment given the resources and distance needed to get the victim to proper treatment.

...

You are spectacular in your ability to take quotes out of context and twist them to your agenda.

AHA and ILFOR guidelines have been amended primarily because the layman person has a proven idiosyncrasy to mouth to mouth, and privileging chest compression is more effective. They privilege chest compressions. The same guidelines however, do NOT, I repeat, do NOT "no longer include rescue breaths"

In any case, going back to Rescue scenario, for us trained by and affiliated to lesser agencies, in water chest compressions are hard to perform - based on your assertions, it sounds like your home made agency teaches divers to walk on water, so i would not be surprised if it also teaches to perform effective chest compressions in water using the BP\W as platform

 

[Jim Lapenta]

In water chest compressions are impossible. To suggest otherwise is idiotic and to suggest anyone would try it is even more asinine.

Homemade agency? SEI evolved from the YMCA scuba program. That program was around long before a couple guys formed one to make a buck over a bottle of booze.

 

[demed]

Should we change this thread to Rescue Diver Techniques? Or go back to the OP's question? I've read and thought about this subject a lot and most of you have some great points, in my experience, the instructors I work with utilize me and my DIR set up to test their students during the rescue class as an added challenge and a chance to get familiar with unfamiliar gear however, This is a college diving program so our OW course is 6 weeks long, in addition, our Rescue is 3-4 weeks depending on schedule, so we have more time with our students. I digress. The point I am trying to make is that, wouldn't it be better to have one IE student in BP/W Long hose etc just for the sheer chance other IE students may encounter this gear situation in the future? furthermore, gives them a chance to actually use their brains by stepping outside of the box when it comes to a rescue considering gear. While it may be a hinderance and make it "less easy" on other students, I feel that a good instructor is one who has experience in all things diving and is open to how others enjoy the sport. Who knows, maybe that one unlucky IE student who has to rescue me in the IE has to do it for real at a later date and is glad he had the opportunity to practice. Thats my last 0.02

I've seen candidates in BP\W at the IE - it was amusing, to say the least.
The problem is that the candidates in BP\W are normally so full of themselves and ready to show off that they completely discount how to adapt skill performance to their configuration - in most case at the IE they do not have a clue.

I personally believe that it's perfectly fine to attend an IE in BP\W (and\or DIR) configuration, as long as the candidate knows his\her configuration and has done enough skill practice to adjust with other candidates, BP\W and not. the are some caveats though.

What agency bashing trolls forget is that most of the Instructor Examiners are proficient in the use of BP\W, most of them are actually Tec trained, most of them promote TecRec on a regular basis, and are not shocked by the BP\W candidate. The Examiners care about how the candidate teaches, not the color or the lenght of the hose.
It's far more likely that some fellow candidates would not all be so familiar with that configuration and that would create problems for the class and the flow of skills for everyone else. Now, instead of focusing on the teaching, the whole class gets wrapped up into figuring the gear instead of the skills.

IMHO, the IE is not the place to worry about gear.

(As a matter of fact, as a personal pet project, I'm actually working on adapting the full IDC skill circuit to BP\W configuration, ahead of my CDTC)

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:51 PM ----------

A...

For the record...
... If you really want to take class with me, this is how it's going to be, with this gear, and this is why. Take it or leave it. ....

You just outlined in no uncertain terms the basics of customer satisfaction, it should be so easy for anyone to follow the lead.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:54 PM ----------

... Is it just to me that it seems the ie is wrong if they cannot cope with an increasingly popular set up, which is in the view of many divers, better in all aspects?

Yes, it is you. The IE is not a person, is an event and it does not well with the concept of coping - however, the IE is not the problem, the problem is normally the candidate in BP\W and the fellow candidates in recreational BCDs (some of these are actually backinflated even if this sounds like a surprise to many).

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:56 PM ----------

...

I do think it's a shame that there are OW divers out there from many informed and skilled instructors that seem to know more than CD's and IT's when it comes to reality and gear.

...

you just wasted an otherwise commendable posting with a so typical misinformed generalization.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 09:05 PM ----------

...
We heard from TSandM that in the Pacific NW bp/wings are more of the "norm" than the stab jacket styles....
...
I keep hearing it is not the gear, but the teaching.....If we were discussing different brands of masks or fins, or tanks or regulators...I would not be arguing. But with a large number of instructor candidates, in a national sample base, the vast majority will NOT know enough about how to use a BP/wing to even make an embarrassingly poor demonstration of basics in configuration for rough trim, or rescue, or even deployment of hoses, computers and gauges....By this I mean they can't teach what they don't know.

TSandM is quite self-referential in her statements about a vast region like the Pacific NW, and might be too optimistic or erring in considering the tec community(ies) as significant as she leads to believe.

We have significant communities diving BP\W, but nowhere near as "the norm".

I also believe you are spot on on statistics at national level.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 09:08 PM ----------

... And if some poor tropically trained Candidate had made the mistake of coming to the NW to do his IE, what sort of a shock might she have encountered with thick gloves, dry suit hoses (and valves) ....

Peter Guy, i'm in full agreement for once.

if HE came to the PNW with tropical training and SHE encountered thick gloves and drysuit hoses, the poor candidate would definitely be in a state if not of shock, at least very confused

 

[TSandM]

I have attended a number of NWDC (our virtual dive club, not at all DIR) dives, where well over half the divers were in backplates. I walked from our car to the restroom at Les Davis one day, on a day when I knew NOBODY else in the parking lot, and every single vehicle with its back open had backplates set up in it.

They make SENSE in the PNW, because of the ballast considerations, and they really are common here, in a way that they aren't on Maui, for example.

Demed, I am not talking about the GUE community. Of course we all use backplates. We are a tiny fraction of the PNW diving community, as are the technical divers of any sort.

 

[demed]

I have attended a number of NWDC (our virtual dive club, not at all DIR) dives, where well over half the divers were in backplates. I walked from our car to the restroom at Les Davis one day, on a day when I knew NOBODY else in the parking lot, and every single vehicle with its back open had backplates set up in it.

They make SENSE in the PNW, because of the ballast considerations, and they really are common here, in a way that they aren't on Maui, for example.

Demed, I am not talking about the GUE community. Of course we all use backplates. We are a tiny fraction of the PNW diving community, as are the technical divers of any sort.

So now NWDC represents\is THE Pacific Northwest Divers community? nothing wrong with NWDC per se, I love it and support it, but do you have any idea about how it stacks compared to the market? Do you have any idea of how many active divers are in the state and how many might be indeed using BP\W?
You look at your friends and you think they are the world. Well, they are but not in the way you think.

Your views appear SO skewed when you make these statements to undermine anything else you say. You confuse the layer of topmost active and vocal divers with the dive community at large. It's like reading the Pravda or watching Fox News and believe for a moment it was journalism.

Thousands of divers get certified in Washington State, and while we might lose about 80% of those after certification thanks to suicidal local practices for the industry, yet only a tiny fraction end touching NWDC or GUE or UTD or TDI or NAUI Tec instructors or PADI TecRec or moving to a BP\W.

If i was a betting person, i would say that at least 95% of divers in washington state dive something other than BP\W.

On the other hand, if you'd say that a good number of those doing 100+ dives a year end in BP\W or that a large number of internet divers (those who prefer talking about diving on the internet rather than actual diving) prefer BP\W, or that Tec diving is the fastest growing segment of the dive industry, you'd sound more anchored to reality.

You are actually more believable when you point to the fact that BPWs might be more common at some location around the PNW than in Maui.


Peace & Love

 

[Pullmyfinger]

I'll just throw some random thought(s) out; I'm feeling drawn back into this thread.

The IE is not about you, it's not about how cool you think you are, and none of the other candidates are going to give a $hit about your backplate wing, or how awesome you think you are, or how you are going to tech your classes like you are the greatest future instructor that God ever breathed breath into once you pass the IE.

Seriously.....none of your fellow candidates are there to be impressed with anyone that's so impressed with themselves.

I dive a back plate wing.... but in the context of the IE ......big deal!
What I've learned, is that most divers do not care, nor are they impressed.

Don't dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the backplate for being such an awesome diver/instructor.

I bought a recreational BC for my IE. Why?......because I didn't want to show up trying to be "special". Why try and "F" it up for other candidates?

People can think what they want about having to dive with whatever gear, and being God's gift to all equipment configuration.
Consider that many people going to the IDC and IE are from other countries. Perhaps they don't dive back plates where they are from.

Some at my IE needed translators, they certainly didn't know what a damn backplate was.
So....go ahead and show up to an IE and spout off about how everyone is supposed to know how to dive every equipment configuration if you want.

You would accomplish nothing productive or positive by doing that.

As for the agency bashing crap.

I've seen plenty of pictures of Instructors from all agencies out of trim....or with tanks slung with hardware store rope and suicide clips, etc.
Including SEI.

Arguing about who teaches the best OW class is like arguing about who had the best PE teacher in grade school.

You're teaching an OW class not a technical diving course.
If some of you guys just want to be chest thumpers and want to make all of us think that your students look like Fundamentals students after ONLY your OW course.
How long is your course? What does it cost? Prove it by posting videos of "actual" students. Hell post some great skills demo videos so we can all marvel at your greatness. Seeing is believing.

We are talking about OW training.
All of these threads end up getting littered with Instructors trying to flex their little squirrel nuts.......over OW Training.
Seriously?!?

As for the original poster:

Man, just relax, focus on learning as much as you can during your IDC, and pass your IE, and then just go do your thing and have fun.....or do it the way the shop you're going to teach for tells you too.
Or buy your own gear and teach independently.

Either way.....as I recall RJP mentioning before, and it bears repeating.

Just don't be a Di¢k.

Keep in mind that you can teach a VERY good OW diving course. That is entirely up to YOU.

Cheers,
Mitch

 

[gsteven]

OK, lots of opinions here. Some good, some silly, some...well...

I am PADI Staff Instructor. If you have not yet taken the IDC, you do not yet know what the IE is all about. You are being a little bit...Please excuse, I don't mean to judge, but I can't find other words that convey...You are being presumptuous and selfish.

The IE is NOT a solo exercise. It is a class/group exercise. You will be pretending to be a student with issues, and others will be pretending to be your student. Using a set of gear that fits YOUR idea of what is (right? cool? "true to your intent??? whatever! ) is going to throw a monkey into the wrench. You would have to make certain that all of your classmates were not only aware of your rig, but have practiced with it in various scenarios with you as their "student with issues." And do you know how to conduct such training, or does your Staffie/CD have to do extra sessions to help everyone adapt to YOU?? Are you really saying that your personal preference should take such priority that your teammates should spend an extra day practicing with your pet set of gear, rather than studying for exams or practicing skills, or resting up??

With all due respect to Peter, No, you should NOT do the IE in the "gear that allows you to be most comfortable." You should do it in the gear that allows you AND YOUR CLASSMATES the best chance to pass and not run into avoidable problems.

BTW, not running into avoidable problems is at the heart of being a good scuba instructor. If you are not thinking that way during your IDC/IE, you need to get on board real quick, or you are going to learn the hard way that new instructors who think they have figured it all out are more often than not in for a big shock when they discover that they are not as smart as they think they are. If you cannot see the big picture and note your responsibility to your IDC team, then I wouldn't trust you to teach someone that I care about.

Seriously, and I mean this with all due respect, if you are already making decisions like this, and already presuming to know what is best for OW students before even finishing the IDC, you need to take a step back and do an ego check. You think you already know what is best for students in the OW course? That is not a good place to start. A little humility will tell you that you should maybe - just maybe - be prepared to ASK YOUR STUDENTS on each course what they are planning to do with diving, and teach/gear up accordingly. Most will not be buying gear right away. For them, use the stuff that most resorts use for guests. For those with a go-getter attitude that want to buy gear, go for it - tell them what you think is best and sell it to them. But let THEM decide what they want, and then you decide how to provide it. (That's called "customer service" BTW).

Sorry to be so harsh, but the very idea that you are asking this question demands that somebody give you a blunt answer and make you at least take a look at your motivations. I see ego at work. I don't see empathy or concern for others in your question. What do you think is more important for OW instructors - empathy?? or "being true to your intent??"

Unless your intent is: serving your students' best interests, finding out these interests for each individual, avoiding unnecessary complications and risks, and helping them to succeed as best they can, then you need to re-prioritize, and you need to think about why you want to teach. So you can be the big man with the cool gear and the bright ideas? Or so your students can succeed and fulfill their dreams of being divers?

Get back to me about this - I'd like to hear how you proceed. I'm not trying to cut you down, I am trying to teach you something that will serve you well. Because I want you to succeed, in the IE and in your teaching afterwards. I want you to succeed. Everything I said here was said with that one, single goal. I don't care if you like me or not, and I don't care if I bruise your ego. I only care about your success in teaching.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2015 at 04:04 AM ----------

One more thing before everyone jumps in about "not being able to teach other gear configurations."

I can teach any gear configuration you want. If not, give me a day and I'll teach it tomorrow. Learning every rig possibility is not currently the scope of the IDC. Maybe it should be, and maybe it should last 2 months and cost $10k and weed out those not that serious. And maybe frogs SHOULD learn to fly so their butts don't get sore.

In the current consensus reality, the IE is what it is, and it IS a team effort, and frankly, maybe for some candidates, learning to adapt to a team situation is far more important than making the team learn to adapt to YOU. Depends on your center of attention. Mine is always on the other - the team or the student. If you think the focus should be on YOU...then in my opinion, you will likely be a horrible teacher (and will, of course, blame PADI, not yourself). Want to learn to teach other rigs?? That's what we call taking an initiative, and you can do it on your own time. Guess what? Learning does not stop with the IE, as some here would seem to be implying. If anyone thinks they are a good instructor, then teach yourself how to use different rigs AFTER your team succeeds at the IE.

The current IDC prepares you to take control of your own destiny and to train and evaluate yourself in the acquisition of better and further skills. Some here act like finishing the IE and getting your OWSI card ends the process of learning. If that's what you are telling the OP, then please, don't. The people that suck as PADI instructors aren't sucking because of PADI - and no, I do not think that the PADI system is all great and wonderful, it sucks in many regards - but if you take the PADI IDC and are not motivated, skilled, and resourceful enough to be responsible for your own continuing education, then maybe you should not be teaching yet.

If you want to be awesome in every kit on the planet, get your OWSI card, head to a place with available gear, and spend 2 weeks figuring it all out before you start to teach. But DON'T screw up the IE for your teammates by thinking that you are the god of diving sent from on high to single-handedly fix PADI. Such an attitude from an instructor candidate is condescending and insulting to those of us who have spent years becoming awesome enough to have such attitudes

 

[decompression]

gsteven makes some good points. I might suggest after all this, finding a training agency more "inline" with how you want to teach. It can be hard being forced to teach in a way you believe is wrong or at least feel there is a better way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Peter Guy]

While I had hoped I was done with this thread, I can't help but be sucked back in on a couple of points (while on a couple of points I'll just raise some questions):

Comments:

a. gsteven -- Really? You don't think an IE Candidate should take the IE in gear in which she is comfortable -- even most comfortable? As far as I can tell, the ONLY part of the IE where being in a BP/W might (MIGHT I say) cause another candidate an issue is the Rescue Scenario (anyone disagree here?). And then the only issue would be that there is only one release -- right? At least in MY IE (done in very cold water in cold weather), the Examiner heavily emphasized "DO IT SLOWLY -- TAKE YOUR TIME" (which, BTW, is something that has always bothered me about this particular scenario since the essence of such a "rescue" is to get the victim as quickly as possible to a place where you can do compressions). I'll freely admit that I don't know ALL BCDs out there (heck, I'm only familiar with maybe 6 or 7 different models) but is it really true that ONLY BP/W's don't have shoulder releases? (Seems to me I've seen many others that didn't.). Also, is it really true that ONLY BP/W's have crotch straps? (Seems to me I've seen others that did.)

Everyone -- CHILL on the BP/W will screw up another candidate. Really, HOW will it? (BTW, for those of you who think a "recreational BCD" won't screw up a candidate, do you know how many different types of inflators there are out there? And have you tried the "easy release" while wearing 5mm wet gloves or dry gloves with frozen fingers? Hint -- IT AIN'T EASY to get ANYONE out of their BCD in cold water with frozen fingers.)

B. Mitch -- not ALL IEs have people from around the world -- some, again like the one Demed attended, had people from the local area --- all in dry suits (as I recall) and everyone attempting to work together but NO ONE had identical gear. EVERYONE had to learn their partner's gear.

C. Demed -- I think you are probably right that TSandM is optimistic on her statements regarding divers in the Pacific Northwest and BP/W's -- unless you consider she is talking about people who DIVE in the PNW -- as opposed to people who are certified here but are NOT "PNW Divers.". The subset of people who regularly dive in the PNW, as opposed to the whole set of people who are certified to dive in the PNW, do have a high percentage of BP/W usage.

D. decompression -- your statement to the OP (or whomever) to go find an agency more inline with how he wants to teach is either a very sad commentary on your understanding of PADI or, perhaps, an even sadder sly invitation to join a "Three Letter Agency" located in S.Cal. (and headed by the person who I believe actually taught me to dive). I applaud the OP for wanting to be a PADI instructor and focus on good, solid, excellent training -- isn't that what we all should be doing?

 

[danvolker]

If there are 5 million "actual" scuba divers in the US, by the concept of 6 degrees of separation, it pretty much guarantees that every non-diver that is "considering" taking up diving, KNOWS someone, or has a friend that knows someone that is a diver....And, that with the 6 degrees of separation, the really important ( heavily discussed ) ideas in diving, beat to death on Scubaboard, will be shared with the vast majority of divers in the US outside of SB ( as well as in the rest of the world). If you understand Facebook and Social Media, you know the reality of this concept.

I am assuming that most divers end up with an instructor, by either just finding a local dive shop that stands out ( advertising, word of mouth, visual) or by word of mouth from people they know--from divers, regarding what shop(s) would be most ideal for them to get certified at....

Each shop is going to benefit from sounding like they are better than others for the new student. If a large enough number of Scubaboard Divers feels that there is a huge advantage in an Instructor being skilled with both jacket style BC and with bp/wing systems....in being more well rounded for the interests of the local students...then this mindset will ultimately be distributed and accepted by large numbers of the new student population...opposing views will find their proponents as well in a sub-population of this potential new pool of dive students.

Perhaps there would be a real advantage, in good shops being both a PADI Shop, and say an NASE or SEI or some other agency...This would allow the shop to have BOTH the highest "name recognition" in a dive instruction agency, AND, a certification that establishes a high degree of skill and abilities in the specific needs of the potential student divers at these dive shops...

What is the downside for a dive shop, or, a Dive REsort, in having both a major agency affiliation like PADI, and another that could impart a better expectation of ideal skills to it's students? For the "Word of Mouth" referrals that are the "bread and butter" for the good dive shops, I would think this might be a good direction to explore.

For the highly skilled PADI or NAUI instructor, getting a crossover to something like NASE, where the objective is really to PROVE that certain special skills exist, is not all that much more involved than proving those extra skills.
The crossover itself, for the well skilled instructor, is no big deal....For the poor instructors that have to kneel in the sand to do their drills....they might be in for a rough ride And rightly so