BP/W & Long Hose In a PADI IE Exam

[TSandM]

Both my husband and I have considered becoming GUE instructors. But the GUE OW class has rarely been taught, and even with the modifications, I think it will continue to be taught rarely, except perhaps through GUE-affiliated shops (which are few). If one wants to teach, and wants to impact divers, teaching a class you will be able to teach regularly just seems like a better investment of time and effort. There is NO prohibition against starting students in GUE-compliant gear. There is NO prohibition against encouraging proper trim and propulsion techniques, or good buoyancy. We do it all the time. We had six students swimming, horizontal and for the most part neutral, on their very first experience on scuba last night.

There is NOTHING in the PADI system that requires that you teach on your knees or put your students on theirs. There is nothing that prevents you from weighting them properly and getting them trimmed out as best can be done with the equipment they are using. Nowhere in Peter's IE was he made to put students on the floor of the pool. Most of the issues come from shops or dive ops that try to run the shortest possible class with the least pool or confined water time they can get away with, but that is NOT a problem with PADI.

 

[Divetech99]

TSandM, Just curious, how does GUE teach brand new OW students all of the basic skills? Do they start with neutral buoyancy first before anything else to ensure the student's knees never touch the bottom?

 

[Peter Guy]

Amongst other things, gsteven wrote

Peter - The individual's comfort, unless really physically affecting their ability to perform, should be secondary to the OVERALL cohesion of the class and the optimum learning of the methodology without distraction or task-loading.

Interesting take on the IE -- of which I've only seen one (my own). I knew one other person in that IE and I'm not at all sure we were ever even in the same section, let alone working as a "team.". I still don't see the issue of personal gear in the IE -- as long as it complies with PADI standards. There is no "team" in the IE (at least there certainly wasn't in the only one I've seen) -- NO one as far as I know had any standardized gear (except, in this situation, the local staff who, as I've said before, were in BP/W's) -- we were just people thrown together for 2 days to do the best we could with what we had.

IF, for example, some one was confused, upset, whatever, with the fact I had an Airsource alternate with primary donate, no one said anything to me -- even though that might not be the "recreational standard."

I'm sorry -- I just don't get why people seem to be so concerned. As Sec. Clinton might have said, "What difference does it make?"

 

[decompression]

Both my husband and I have considered becoming GUE instructors. But the GUE OW class has rarely been taught, and even with the modifications, I think it will continue to be taught rarely, except perhaps through GUE-affiliated shops (which are few). If one wants to teach, and wants to impact divers, teaching a class you will be able to teach regularly just seems like a better investment of time and effort. There is NO prohibition against starting students in GUE-compliant gear. There is NO prohibition against encouraging proper trim and propulsion techniques, or good buoyancy. We do it all the time. We had six students swimming, horizontal and for the most part neutral, on their very first experience on scuba last night.

There is NOTHING in the PADI system that requires that you teach on your knees or put your students on theirs. There is nothing that prevents you from weighting them properly and getting them trimmed out as best can be done with the equipment they are using. Nowhere in Peter's IE was he made to put students on the floor of the pool. Most of the issues come from shops or dive ops that try to run the shortest possible class with the least pool or confined water time they can get away with, but that is NOT a problem with PADI.

I agree Lynne, but couldn't the agencies require a higher standard for the IE? Then shops would train to that standard. I do think this would be a financial impossibility as the short term requirement would make the appropriately skilled instructors a rarity, increase failure rates and extend IDC courses considerably (increasing cost). However, were this implemented, over time, as the OW students achieve greater skill from the beginning the numbers of IDC candidates would eventually climb to previous levels. Maybe some recent PADI instructors can let me know if the IE acceptability of both instructor and student, negative and on their knees on the bottom has changed. It's been 15 years since I did my IDC and several years since I've taught PADI courses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TSandM]

I was watching a staff instructor course last night, and the CD teaching it was planted firmly in the "instructor stance", on one knee with the other bent out in front of him. So yes, kneeling is still acceptable, unfortunately. Things take time to change.

 

[decompression]

I guess so, I was glad to see more emphasis on "mid-water" skills in the curriculum so it's a step in the right direction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[boulderjohn]

We heard from TSandM that in the Pacific NW bp/wings are more of the "norm" than the stab jacket styles....and at a destination like Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale, you see lots of Bp/wings on the charter boats, and if you visit the highest volume/largest dive shops, and the best dive shops, you would see that bp/wings are prominently displayed and are a very significant part of their business. You would see some overlap here, and that this would include shops like Force E, Pompano Dive Center, Jupiter Dive Center, and many other well known in the area.
So in destinations with diving like south Florida or Pacific NW, or cave country, or quite a few others members here can name, there really is a large number of divers that considers the Bp/wing superior...

While there are regional differences, let's not exaggerate. In the last couple of weeks, I have done 7 days of diving with Pompano Dive Center, which is a GUE instructor Trainer facility and should be expected to be a BP/W haven. Thinking back, I have seen maybe 4-5 divers other than myself in BP/Ws. I taught the AOW course to two friends through PDC last year, and they used the only two BP/Ws in their rental stock. The divers I have seen using PDC's rental gear this year have all been in ScubaPro jacket BCDs. The OW student I saw get certified a couple days ago was in a jacket BCD.

If there are 5 million "actual" scuba divers in the US, by the concept of 6 degrees of separation, it pretty much guarantees that every non-diver that is "considering" taking up diving, KNOWS someone, or has a friend that knows someone that is a diver....And, that with the 6 degrees of separation, the really important ( heavily discussed ) ideas in diving, beat to death on Scubaboard, will be shared with the vast majority of divers in the US outside of SB ( as well as in the rest of the world). If you understand Facebook and Social Media, you know the reality of this concept.

I have many close friends who are not divers, and not one of them has ever heard me discuss the hot issues in the scuba diving world. I can't imagine the topic would hold their interest for a minute. The ones 6 people removed from me, whom I have never met, have certainly never heard it with me as the source.

Funny how business models tear us apart and ruin the sport we all love. Sadly, all this thread has shown me is not to do the IE with PADI because some people are afraid of change, On the other hand, I should continue my training with GUE and maybe someday become an instructor with them. One could understand that, GUE promotes the standardized equipment I enjoy, The team environment I enjoy (Prior Military), pushing my training further and safety. PADI promotes their own thing (Which is more than fine and some great training) However, [to the OP] If you have read this thread in its entirety, you may get the same conclusion: Until all the old timers (with thousands of C Cards and BS) are too old to dive or we change the dive industry, it will continue to be a *&$@ Measuring contest between business models that no one on here made up 15-40 years ago but state as gospel.

If you finally are able to get GUE instructor certification and are really good at it, you can perhaps get a job teaching at Extreme Exposure in High Springs, Florida. This is the home of GUE, and it is owned by the owner of GUE. Of course, you will not be eligible to teach the majority of their OW classes, since those are done through PADI.

 

[demed]

I was watching a staff instructor course last night, and the CD teaching it was planted firmly in the "instructor stance", on one knee with the other bent out in front of him. So yes, kneeling is still acceptable, unfortunately. Things take time to change.

Lynne, thank you for watching - do you want to provide some context to your audience and explain also what part of the course the CD was teaching?
Otherwise it's a great soundbite, and like a skilled politician, provided for effect not for substance.

At your level of training i do not expect you to know all the curriculum of IDC Staff training, but perhaps your husband could help you there.

 

[danvolker]

So DEMED,
Are you suggesting that outside of a swimming pool with concrete bottom, that it is acceptable for any kind of class to be taught standing or kneeling on a "live bottom" ?

1. I am assuming you would not endorse any "teaching" while kneeling on a "coral" bottom...correct?
2. Is it ever permissible to kneel while teaching on a "muck" bottom, where a great deal of macro life is found, and where contact with the bottom causes massive silting? You are aware many of us do not believe there is any excuse for this....
3. Are you suggesting it is acceptable to look for open sand patches to kneel on, and that kneeling is necessary for instruction....?
4. Are you suggesting that it is not environmentally bad for hundreds of instructors to teach thousands of students that it is OK to kneel or stand on sandy bottoms?
5. Are you suggesting that there is a benefit in having an instructor believe that it is appropriate to perform skills while kneeling, outside of first time attempts in a swimming pool?

On another note.....TSandM is one of the most sincere and nicest posters on SB, and you are being insulting to her personally in your last post to her...I think you may have been offended by Lynn's views on kneeling, but hers was NOT a personal attack on you...

 

[boulderjohn]

Anyone who knows me knows that I do not ever demonstrate while kneeling, and I do not have students do any skills on the knees. I feel it is a mistake to do so. However, in defense of demed's statement, he did appear to be talking about early pool instruction, not open water dives in sensitive environment. When I as negotiating with PADI headquarters over the final wording of the article on teaching OW classes while neutrally buoyant, this was a point of argument. The PADI official with whom I was discussing wanted to say that it was OK to introduce skills on the knees before transferring the skill to a neutral, horizontal posture. We compromised with a sentence of his wording that said that if a skill is introduced to a diver on the knees, then it must be taught again while neutrally buoyant, hopefully within the same training session. I was OK with that wording if it meant getting the article published. Anyone who teaches a skill on the knees and then immediately teaches it off the knees will see almost immediately that introducing the skill on the knees is not just a waste of time, it actually interferes with good learning.