BP/W banned in DM Course

[DevonDiver]

As you know, but I'd just like to point out, the DMC counts against the student/Instructor ratio.

No it doesnt. Is this a typo? The Divemaster Candidate is not a certified and renewed Divemaster... therefore, not a certified assistant, as per the PADI definition.

In fact, there is no actual or formal designation of a Divemaster Candidate. They are a Rescue Diver (or whatever other higher qualification they hold).

The DMC is essentially interning and observing the Instructor's Open Water Class. It is not the DMC's class, and he is not paying to be there. Volunteering, yes.

Maybe it's different at your LDS... but everywhere I've been, people pay to take a Divemaster course. That makes them customers.

In this scenario, even if it is closed minded, non-progressive, and insecure, the Instructor has the right to ask the DMC ..or any of his students to change gear or configuration.

What right? Can you quote a PADI standard that gives an instructor that right?

I can quote several PADI standards that list exactly what the equipment requirements for DM training are. None of those standards prohibit BP&W configurations.

In fact, I even think it is debatable whether insistence on certain exact equipment set-ups could be considered a breach of PADI standards. Instructors aren't allowed to set their own standards for courses.... and, in effect, insistence of specific equipment configurations would be setting personal standards, contrary to the PADI ones..?

The DMC has the right to say, screw you, and to leave the pool area and head home. If the DMC has limited choices and opportunities to complete his DM training, he might just do as the Instructor asks. He should do the Instructor's bidding in front of new students. Confrontation is not an option until "Elvis has left the building." Then maybe the cannons come out!

Students/Customers also have the right to:

1. Contact PADI directly and seek a definitive answer about whether their gear is prohibited and/or unsuitable for DM training.

2. Complain publically or privately if their purchased training course does not meet their expectations due to personal or professional issues caused by the instructor.

3. Expect a full refund if they cannot complete their training course, because the instructor has imposed non-sanctified standards and/or imposes additional and unofficial requirements that cause additional expense to the student... or if the instructor refused to teach the student because the student could not, or would not, meet those unofficial standards.

 

[Diver0001]

I think the response is stupid now and I thought it was stupid when I received the same response.

Students need to see different rigs so they can decide for themselves what is appropriate to use and buy. IF they are never presented with the alternatives, they'll never be given the information they pay us to provide them.

Agreed in principle. However the DIR setup has one major difference as compared to a traditional OW config, which is that you donate the primary instead of the secondary in OOA situations.

I think it's beneficial for students to be exposed to both of these things but there is a strong potential for instructors using Hogarthian configs while teaching to come across as saying, "do as I say, not as I do".

As for the OP's instructor just forbidding it: I was fortunate enough to have an instructor during my DM course who coached me in how to "explain" it instead of simply hiding it from view.

For teaching I use what the students are in during the OW course, mainly because it simplifies teaching air sharing protocols. However during the process of that I do show them the Hogarthian config and "discuss" (not practice) alternative air sharing scenarios (as well as various ways it can go pear-shaped) and the various different gear configurations they're likely to see in the real world. The most common question I get when I do that is, "which configuration is the most common?" to which I say, "the one you're learning in". The second most common question I get is, "which configuration is the best?" to which I normally answer, "it depends" and then discuss the strengths and weaknesses of various ways of doing things. When students ask me which config I use, I tell them but stress that it's a personal choice and what I want to impart upon them is a way of thinking about gear and not a *one size fits all* directive about what they should be using.

All in all I think this approach gives the students the best foundation I can give them in an OW course for making their own decisions.

My experience is as follows:

a. Students generally don't notice I wear different gear;

I make sure my students notice the differences, as mentioned above and that have some information about how to evaluate what they're seeing.

Instructors need to be flexible and provide information. As long as the gear is generally the same (i.e., not side-mount or CCR), why not expose students to as much information as possible? They are certainly going to see different variations soon enough.

This ^^

R..

 

[jar546]

No it doesnt. Is this a typo? The Divemaster Candidate is not a certified and renewed Divemaster... therefore, not a certified assistant, as per the PADI definition.

In fact, there is no actual or formal designation of a Divemaster Candidate. They are a Rescue Diver (or whatever other higher qualification they hold).

Agree

it's different at your LDS... but everywhere I've been, people pay to take a Divemaster course. That makes them customers.

Agree

right? Can you quote a PADI standard that gives an instructor that right?

Don't agree. The instructor can always ask but cannot force the issue if there is not a safety issue involved. The quote below outlining the customers right is the answer to the conflict, IF they did not try to discuss it first.

/Customers also have the right to:

1. Contact PADI directly and seek a definitive answer about whether their gear is prohibited and/or unsuitable for DM training.

2. Complain publically or privately if their purchased training course does not meet their expectations due to personal or professional issues caused by the instructor.

3. Expect a full refund if they cannot complete their training course, because the instructor has imposed non-sanctified standards and/or imposes additional and unofficial requirements that cause additional expense to the student... or if the instructor refused to teach the student because the student could not, or would not, meet those unofficial standards.

The DMC can also respond to the request of the instructor by stating that they would prefer to use the gear they are comfortable with.

I will bet you if the OP would have told the instructor "no" and gave a common sense response as to why, the instructor may have just said, "OK".

 

[Diver0001]

I will bet you if the OP would have told the instructor "no" and gave a common sense response as to why, the instructor may have just said, "OK".

Maybe but being a good DM means learning to look at diving with a little less "me me me" and a little more "what can I do for you".

If I had a DMC that wasn't willing to focus his/her attention on the needs of students and instead had the opinion that the students should, instead, be adapting to his/her needs then that would be a cause for concern.

If I asked for flexibility from a DMC and got a response that indicated that they were set in their ways and unable to adapt, then that would also be a cause for concern.

I'm not saying that this is what happened (or could have happened) in this case; I'm just saying that while instructors are certainly not perfect (to say the least), they ARE in charge and DMC's, especially ones who have a lot of experience coming in, may have to "let go" of some things so they can "learn" their role properly.

In such a case, I wouldn't fault the instructor for saying, "ok, have it your way" and writing the DMC an referral and ending their collaboration. I've seen this happen on several occasions and invariably it's the ones who were experienced divers who were a little too set in their ways and as a result were unable to learn the role.

R..

@ randytay:

p.s. I should stress that I can certainly sympathize with you and I think you handled it gracefully enough. Not every instructor is going to be open to doing things differently either. The crappy thing about being the DMC is that when it's the instructor who is set in their ways, there isn't much you can do about it.

I think doing what the instructor asked was the right first step. The next step is to just keep talking to him about it. Objections can often be addressed rationally (which might have been what jar546 was trying to say) as long as communication is open but not in an atmosphere of conflict. You were right not to defy him but you don't need to leave it at that.

Good luck.

R..

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's the definition of 'certified assistant', which influences the student-instructor ratios for the course. A certified assistant is a qualified, renewed status, PADI divemaster or instructor.

However, an instructor may wish to use an assistant for his courses, who is not a certified assistant. The instructor recieves no benefit from higher student-instructor rations, but does recieve the benefit of in-water support.

That's how I interpreted it.

Student ratios mean little in local conditions ... instructors often like to have an assistant for every buddy pair, due to poor visibility ... and I won't teach more than four students in any class without another instructor or DM in the water with me. I have had several friends who are PADI instructors helping out with my classes, and vice-versa. It's good to know we haven't been somehow violating standards, since it's to our mutual advantage to coordinate our resources ... not to mention the advantage of the students ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

However the DIR setup has one major difference as compared to a traditional OW config, which is that you donate the primary instead of the secondary in OOA situations.

... as does any configuration that uses an inline backup second state (e.g. "Air II"). And since these configurations are commonly sold, and even promoted to OW students, at local dive shops, I think it's a good idea to expose the student to alternative configurations, and the differences in technique required to use them properly.

When I teach an OW class, I always expose my students to alternative configurations ... and I've yet to "confuse" an OW student by explaining that these alternative configurations each have advantages and disadvantages, and that each has its own variant on air sharing techniques.

OW students are typically more capable of sorting these things out than a lot of instructors give them credit for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

Rotourner -- I always make sure the students see both the "traditional" Octo setup AND the "Air2" type (which I use in the pool in addition to the necklace) because so many of the students will be sold the Air 2 type. The students will also practice using both systems.

I make no apologies for explaining why I prefer "my" system and, in general, students tend to agree -- especially after not being able to find their octo which has come out of its clip!

 

[Diver0001]

When I teach an OW class, I always expose my students to alternative configurations ... and I've yet to "confuse" an OW student by explaining that these alternative configurations each have advantages and disadvantages, and that each has its own variant on air sharing techniques.

OW students are typically more capable of sorting these things out than a lot of instructors give them credit for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Sounds like your experience and mine are very similar.

R..

 

[TSandM]

The statement "A DMC counts AGAINST ratios" means that the DMC is considered a student, and therefore reduces the number of OW students that the instructor can have in the water -- not that the DMC is considered an assistant.

I agree that the person responsible for the DM class has the right to require gear changes, if there is gear involved that doesn't fit or work properly, or that he sees as increasing risk. (The risk and responsibility taken on by OW instructors is amazing, anyway!) The sad part is that an instructor would see a Hogarthian setup as increasing risk, but all you can do is try to educate . . . maybe a talk over beers after class one afternoon, where you can ask him precisely WHAT his objection is, and see if you can offer some data to refute the issues. I know our shop owner has a real thing about the lack of releases, and we've tried to talk about it, but we don't get very far.

 

[Ste Wart]

I know our shop owner has a real thing about the lack of releases, and we've tried to talk about it, but we don't get very far.

IANTD are the only agency( I know of) which make specific mention about releases; when in connection with a course. Namely that if you cannot complete a kit removal and replacement in a certain time, because of 1-piece, then you are required to put a break in.

Last time I looked PADI say nada about having releases on your equipment.