BP/W banned in DM Course

[randytay]

Maybe what we you are dealing with is someone who has had some DIR_F'ed diver to deal with in the past. Forgive me but I read a little of it in your tone- I might be wrong and if so, I apoligize but go with me a little. Being a DMC, you should be at the level where gear does not matter, you should be able to dive any BC you are handed with equal ease, instead of being excited about working with students you are "bummed out" about what BC you are wearing. In a later post you said he made it a point to tell you he did not care about DIR nor want his students given the impression a BP is safer- again sounds like he has delt with a DIR-F'ed diver before and you were at least giving the impression he may have one on his hands again. While I don't necessariliy agree with you not being able to use a BP I can see why an instructor would want to head off a DIR-F'ed type conversation in his class. I DM a lot and do feel students need to see a wide varity of gear, so do our instructors. In confined water, we all dive standard jacket BCs and standard octs, in OW we dive the gambit from jackets to BP/wing/long hose and pretty much everything in between. I even throw in a double hose reg (modified so it does meet equipment requirements) on occasion just to mix it up and we go out of our way to point out the differences.
Ease off the coolaid, put on the BC and learn to make it look as good as you look in your BP/wing and show them what a good diver looks like.....one who is in control of his gear, not the other way around.

No offense taken. I don't have a problem diving with a jacket bc, I just don't like it and therefore bummed out.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

AFAIU, PADI Standards do not allow an assistant who is not at least PADI DM certified. You could be UTD Cave Trimix Instructor certified and still not be allowed by Standards to assist a PADI Intro Dive if not at least PADI DM.

Interesting ... did the standard change over the past few years?

Back in 2003 when I was a DM I assisted a couple different PADI instructors with a NAUI DM certification ... which is a closer equivalent to the PADI AI rating.

AFAIR, my assistance couldn't be used for student to staff ratios ... but there was no proscription that I'm aware of disallowing me to assist with the class.

Same went for DMC's ... which the instructors I worked with used regularly ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you are student then you should wear whatever is safe and not inconsistent with the course. However, once you become an employee then you do what the boss says. Everyday my boss says to do things that I don't like, disagree with and (it bums me out) ...does anyone care??

One of the primary goals is to sell gear, If you are wearing gear that is radically different than what is sold, you can't expect the instructor to allow you to wear whatever the hell you want.

Get a new job if this one bums you out too much.


When I worked as a DM, my gear was such an abortion, that they made me wear rental gear during classes and on training dives. I was HAPPY about it.

Somehow I got the impression this is a class ... not a job. If he's a DMC, he's paying for training ... and not necessarily a shop employee. Lots of times, DMCs are asked to help out with a class as part of their training. They aren't getting paid for it ... or renumerated in any way. It's considered part of the curriculum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Somehow I got the impression this is a class ... not a job. If he's a DMC, he's paying for training ... and not necessarily a shop employee. Lots of times, DMCs are asked to help out with a class as part of their training. They aren't getting paid for it ... or renumerated in any way. It's considered part of the curriculum.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well if it is a class he is paying for then, he should be able to wear what is reasonable and is safe.

 

[jepuskar]

What is a BP/W?

 

[DevonDiver]

What is a BP/W?

Bra and panties/wig

 

[DevonDiver]

AFAIU, PADI Standards do not allow an assistant who is not at least PADI DM certified. You could be UTD Cave Trimix Instructor certified and still not be allowed by Standards to assist a PADI Intro Dive if not at least PADI DM.

That's the definition of 'certified assistant', which influences the student-instructor ratios for the course. A certified assistant is a qualified, renewed status, PADI divemaster or instructor.

However, an instructor may wish to use an assistant for his courses, who is not a certified assistant. The instructor recieves no benefit from higher student-instructor rations, but does recieve the benefit of in-water support.

 

[Thalassamania]

Peter has it right.

 

[Divedoggie]

That's the definition of 'certified assistant', which influences the student-instructor ratios for the course. A certified assistant is a qualified, renewed status, PADI divemaster or instructor.

However, an instructor may wish to use an assistant for his courses, who is not a certified assistant. The instructor recieves no benefit from higher student-instructor rations, but does recieve the benefit of in-water support.

As you know, but I'd just like to point out, the DMC counts against the student/Instructor ratio. The DMC is essentially interning and observing the Instructor's Open Water Class. It is not the DMC's class, and he is not paying to be there. Volunteering, yes.
In this scenario, even if it is closed minded, non-progressive, and insecure, the Instructor has the right to ask the DMC ..or any of his students to change gear or configuration.
The DMC has the right to say, screw you, and to leave the pool area and head home. If the DMC has limited choices and opportunities to complete his DM training, he might just do as the Instructor asks. He should do the Instructor's bidding in front of new students. Confrontation is not an option until "Elvis has left the building." Then maybe the cannons come out!

I constantly have students show up with poor fitting fins, fogging masks, or an ill-fitting BC and I dig through my supplies, have them remove the ill fitting gear, and I replace it with something that I feel is safer and that will work more effectively. An OW class is the Instructor's liability.

Personally, I would have encouraged the OP use his prefered gear unless it was malfunctioning, or truly unsafe. But, we have only heard the OP's side of the story. It would be interesting to hear the Instructor's version.

 

[DevonDiver]

As you know, but I'd just like to point out, the DMC counts against the student/Instructor ratio.

No it doesnt. Is this a typo? The Divemaster Candidate is not a certified and renewed Divemaster... therefore, not a certified assistant, as per the PADI definition.

In fact, there is no actual or formal designation of a Divemaster Candidate. They are a Rescue Diver (or whatever other higher qualification they hold).

The DMC is essentially interning and observing the Instructor's Open Water Class. It is not the DMC's class, and he is not paying to be there. Volunteering, yes.

Maybe it's different at your LDS... but everywhere I've been, people pay to take a Divemaster course. That makes them customers.

In this scenario, even if it is closed minded, non-progressive, and insecure, the Instructor has the right to ask the DMC ..or any of his students to change gear or configuration.

What right? Can you quote a PADI standard that gives an instructor that right?

I can quote several PADI standards that list exactly what the equipment requirements for DM training are. None of those standards prohibit BP&W configurations.

In fact, I even think it is debatable whether insistence on certain exact equipment set-ups could be considered a breach of PADI standards. Instructors aren't allowed to set their own standards for courses.... and, in effect, insistence of specific equipment configurations would be setting personal standards, contrary to the PADI ones..?

The DMC has the right to say, screw you, and to leave the pool area and head home. If the DMC has limited choices and opportunities to complete his DM training, he might just do as the Instructor asks. He should do the Instructor's bidding in front of new students. Confrontation is not an option until "Elvis has left the building." Then maybe the cannons come out!

Students/Customers also have the right to:

1. Contact PADI directly and seek a definitive answer about whether their gear is prohibited and/or unsuitable for DM training.

2. Complain publically or privately if their purchased training course does not meet their expectations due to personal or professional issues caused by the instructor.

3. Expect a full refund if they cannot complete their training course, because the instructor has imposed non-sanctified standards and/or imposes additional and unofficial requirements that cause additional expense to the student... or if the instructor refused to teach the student because the student could not, or would not, meet those unofficial standards.