BP/W banned in DM Course

[MXGratefulDiver]

I asked a couple instructors recently whether they would allow students in their leadership classes to use gear that the instructor is not familiar with or otherwise different than the "norm". While I thought the instructors would dissallow because of the Great Scuba Industry Conpiracy(tm) I was suprised to learn the reasons have less to do with shop politics and more to do with professional integrity.

The instructors responded that they dissallow unfamiliar gear and configurations because they do not want to be put in a position where students ask questions that the instructor is unqualified to answer appropriately.

If an instructor is unqualified to answer a question about a variant of BCD and regulator, what does that say about the qualifications of that instructor?

It takes me all of about 10 minutes to explain those differences to an OW student who has never seen either before ... and that includes a demonstration on how each works, as well as the advantages and disadvantages of each.

Claiming ignorance does not inspire confidence in someone's ability as a dive professional ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

My instructor told me the same thing (not to use BP/W 7' hose) but when I got my BP/W that helped my trim so much I wont dive with anything else. I stay flat and knees bent effortlessly. I have also since then taken cavern so my kick style is much different.
Reasons he want me to use gear everyone else is using is :
1) don't want to students to get confused.
2) don't want anything "exotic"
3) wants me to use the gear he sells
4) wants us to look the same.

Well I will not give up my BP/W but if it an open water dive i do lose the 7' hose. In the pool I use my jacket BCD. If I am running a trip with certified divers then I ware what I want.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

If a DMC showed up in something other than what I was using and I could not explain to a student how it worked I should not be teaching period. This would mean that I have chosen to isolate myself from anything other than my own little world. That does a great disservice to the students. I am required to take so many con ed courses to maintain my instructor status. That for me necessitates being familiar with as many different gear configurations as possible. If however a dmc showed up in something new or exotic, other than a rebreather, I'd have two requirements before I'd let them use it in class- show me you can do all the required skills in it. Two- let me try it in the pool and on a couple dives so I know for myself what it is! If you can do that feel free to use a clorox bottle for a BC and a piece of plywood for a backplate!

 

[hypertech]

Jim's got the right answer here. An instructor that bans something because he doesn't understand it is lacking in more areas than one. In my opinion, a "professional" would view that as an opportunity to learn something. Those that have educated long enough (not necessarily talking scuba here) recognize that you can often learn from students as much as they learn from you.

I would accept that position if I showed up last minute with funky gear they had never seen before and essentially putting the instructor on the spot in an uncomfortable situation. Although, I would see this as unlikely. If someone asked the instructor about it, I don't see why they wouldn't reply - I'm not sure ask him. Its his gear. But, I would expect to talk about it afterward to resolve the situation for the next time.

 

[The Chairman]

Bob and Jim,

:gans:​

There are all sorts of gear I bet you would frown on any DMC using. Diving helmet, rebreather, sidemount, Spare air, full face mask and the list can go on. While explaining a 7' hose is intuitive for a caver/techie, it's not for an OW instructor who only does recreational diving.

Part of the problem are the myths that surround a lot of the gear we use. It's not unusual or unreasonable for an instructor to buy into those myths. This has very little bearing on their suitability to train others to dive in an OW environment.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

But if the instructor knows that the student may run into all different types of gear what is wrong with exposing them to that or at the very least be able to explain it in intelligent terms. I've never been on a rebreather or used a helmet but I know how they work and could explain the basics. New divers may end up on a boat with a rebreather diver. Or sidemount or god forbid someone carrying a spare air! Would I allow those in a class? Yes. If it would benefit the student.

Standards say that an assistant must be in gear similar to that as students which if someone was actually assisting me means they could not use a rebreather but I would not have a problem with someone coming in and demoing its use. The sidemount and spare airs would allow me to clearly illustrate limitations and flexibility each would offer. Now it is true that I have enough time to do that with small classes and time I am required to spend in the pool. Those are extremes. But BC is a BC and a reg a reg whether it has a 7ft hose or 32 inch hose. Or a jacket as opposed to a modular system. Just because an instructor does not personally use them is no reason why he/she can't explain the differences. If an OW student does the research and decides they want a BPW for their first BC and wants to learn in that is that a reason for the instructor to deny training? Or is it a learning opportunity for the instructor?

Personally if they want to deny training fine, that diver just may come to one of us that will accept the gear and increase our business.

 

[randytay]

But if the instructor knows that the student may run into all different types of gear what is wrong with exposing them to that or at the very least be able to explain it in intelligent terms. I've never been on a rebreather or used a helmet but I know how they work and could explain the basics. New divers may end up on a boat with a rebreather diver. Or sidemount or god forbid someone carrying a spare air! Would I allow those in a class? Yes. If it would benefit the student.

Most instructor I know (in my part of the town at least) are only interested in having the students learn how to be a safe diver. What gear/configuration they will encounter in real life LATER is no longer their concern, i.e. they can learn about the "new" stuff after they are certified divers.

While interviewing instructors for my DMC, I came across an instructor working for a *ahem* big retail chain in the west coast that shall remained unnamed. Said instructor have never heard of a BP/W, and actually asked me if I am able to donate air to an OOA diver if I use it

Another instructor from the same chain questioned me why would I want to do a DM course if I am going to learn "that kind of diving"

I promptly made a note to myself to not take a class with any instructors from the retail chain.

 

[*dave*]

What would you have done?

I've been there and what I did was to dive my rig. I used a rental jacket for pool work, but have never used anything but BP/W and long hose for checkouts.

The IT decided to audit one of my first classes and sat in on every session and every checkout dive. After our last pool session, I pulled my rig out and asked a 10yo male student to identify the various components, which he did flawlessly.

There is nothing in the standards of SSI that prohibits the use of a plate and wing or long hose. I don't believe they belong in pool sessions, unless the students are kitted the same, but I find it far superior to a jacket and short hose for checkouts.

This worked out well for me, but your situation is likely very different from mine. Best of luck with it.

 

[*dave*]

Bob and Jim,

:gans:​

There are all sorts of gear I bet you would frown on any DMC using. Diving helmet, rebreather, sidemount, Spare air, full face mask and the list can go on. While explaining a 7' hose is intuitive for a caver/techie, it's not for an OW instructor who only does recreational diving.

I was doing checkout a few weeks ago in pretty cold water: 35-39 degrees. I had to deal with several freeflows at depth, which was easily accomplished by passing of the LH, shutting down the tank and waiting for the reg to thaw. While we waited, we played rock paper scissors. I could see the student, their movements and their eyes told me all was well.

After the dives, my DC mentioned that he'd be getting a LH, as well. He had been impressed by how relaxed the air share was and how much more freedom and flexibility I had as the donor.

My gear is an integral part of my safety and more importantly, the safety of my students.

 

[Islandheart]

I had not looked at the Go Pro section lately and when I did the other day saw this thread. Took awhile to read through all the posts but I did. This is a good one.

Some posters are so bias on one side or the other it's amazing. Some seem to really learn something they had not considered before either way, and a couple appear "stuck" mentally.

Any how ... my .02

First off, I'm an independent instructor. I don't own a shop or sell gear. I've been diving about 39 years, experienced a lot of equipment and evelovtion of technology in diving. I taught years ago and now returned to it about 3 years ago.

I've trained as a DMC and worked as a DM. I've enjoyed each step along the way.

I've sought to expose myself to the different realms of diving, TEC/Cave/Rebreather/Repair/etc, and the equipment that is used, so I know the basics of those areas.

I've worked for more than one of the Big Shops and had to drink their kool-aid, of equipment use/sales or not work. I've been around the smaller shops that go the other way and embrace everything you could think of.

NOW, in relationship to this thread: I recently had a diver ask about working with me on his Rescue and DMC, in route to his later IDC.

When we met to discuss the training, I asked him to bring in his equipment as I had not dove or trained with him before. When we met, I could see he was a BP&W user and told him up front, that if he elected to do his DMC with me, that I'd want him to use the same type gear the OW students use. If he wanted, he could use one of my spare jacket style BCDs.

I did not ask him to use it during his Rescue, but during that training, after he had gotten in and out of his BP&W a "few" times, he switched to an extra BCD with the quick releases. I think a little note formed in his head.

But as a DMC helping with Rescue, I'd be asking him to use one of my BCDs.

As a side note, his Octo hose was standard length. but black. As it was his alternate air 2nd, I asked that he at least make the hose yellow and offered him a spare yellow mouthpiece. He smiled and said "oh yea, I remember that from OW".

I provide all the Scuba (regs,BCD,weights,tanks,air) items required for OW students. If they want to buy their own stuff and use it that's ok too, but I don't push a person in any one direction.

I always offer to meet any student at their choice of shops, to discuss any gear they wish.

He has signed on with me, he did extremely well during Rescue. He's been a sponge during DMC and has already shown that he'll be an excellent DM and future Instructor.

and no, he's not my slave or Tank-Bitch....