Boat diving.Do we have it all wrong?!

[KenGordon]

Yep, https://assets.publishing.service.g...oads/attachment_data/file/830938/red_code.pdf

The service area limitations are quite severe, it seems. Five to twenty miles from departure and daylight only. Hardly worth the trouble. Better to use the exemption I posted above.



I always thought that was a holdover from a bygone era. Have you ever witnessed that loophole in use? A yacht charter maybe; not for strict commercial use.



Yes, but it states the exemption for private ownership (clubs).



What specifically are you asking for? For US trade, your choices are for uninspected passenger vessels with 6 passengers for hire, or uninspected vessels of 100 gross tons or more with at least one person for hire nor more than 12. All others are inspected vessels (with a COI).

For vessels with a COI, a naval architect must supply working drawings with engineering calculations for design review and approval by the Coast Guard for a human lift installation. Is that what you are asking?

cheers,
m²V2

I think the red code thing is succeeded by the mgn280 one. There are two things here. One is club boats, which are exempt, the other is commercial boats up to 12 passengers and less than a particular size which are not exempt and to which those regulations apply. Those are all the dive boats we pay to go on. Some clubs have similar larger boats that take 12 but usually they have RHIBs. These commercial boats can usually go 60 miles, otherwise they’d not be able to get to France, St Kilda, Shetland etc. Some can go further. I am pretty sure ‘loophole’ is not how the operators see their standards compliance.

So, my question is for a normal commercial (ie divers paying) boat, more that 6 divers, what are the rules? Is that the COI case? For the non inspected, less than 100 tons case what does “with at least one person for hire nor more than 12.” mean? Can you have a 12 diver plus crew boat without a COI? I am guessing not or what is a six pack for?

If a normal dive boat has to have a COI is it really too much to ask to get a proper job done on the design of a lift?

 

[Wookie]

I always thought that was a holdover from a bygone era. Have you ever witnessed that loophole in use? A yacht charter maybe; not for strict commercial use.

Spree was dual certified, for exactly the reason stated. As a coastwise vessel, I was inspected. As a regulatory vessel, I was uninspected, and therefore able to carry 12 on international voyages and able to disregrd SOLAS.

Her last COI. Read section about oceans route on page 1

 

[Wookie]

Can you have a 12 diver plus crew boat without a COI? I am guessing not or what is a six pack for?

Yes. As long as the vessel is over 100 GT or GRT. The regulation is a holdover for cargo vessels that have passenger quarters. These are still in existence today. Cargo Ship Voyages

 

[markmud]

more that 6 divers, what are the rules?

Hi Ken,

Thanks for wanting some clarification on this. I think the UK system for vessel design, inspection, and operation is interesting.

For a vessel of more than 6 pax, the vessel must meet rather strict design criteria, be inspected, and issued a COI (Certificate of Inspection). For vessels greater than 100 gross tons, a vessel need not be inspected if it has one paying passenger but not more than 12. In all case a licensed captain needs to operate the vessel.

I wonder how a 101+ ton vessel can cover expenses with only 12 paying passenger? A pro forma for this type of business doesn't seem to pencil out.

I don't know of any 101+ gross ton vessels that fall into this category. I was a west coast skipper, Florida has more big yachts than the West Coast, maybe large yachts use this exemption (loophole)? I don't know.

I think the red code thing is succeeded by the mgn280 one.

They both seem active? I got them from the same page. I think the page is an official UK government site.
Small craft codes

These commercial boats can usually go 60 miles,...

Yes, depending on their category:
Area Category 2 - Up to 60 miles from a safe haven; Area Category 1 - Up to 150 miles from a safe haven; Area Category 0 – Unrestricted service.

Area category 6 is 3miles.

Spree was dual certified, for exactly the reason stated. As a coastwise vessel, I was inspected. As a regulatory vessel, I was uninspected, and therefore able to carry 12 on international voyages and able to disregrd SOLAS.

Ah, Oh! Did you need STCW training or did that eliminate the international requirement?

cheers,
m²V2

 

[Wookie]

Ah, Oh! Did you need STCW training or did that eliminate the international requirement?

cheers,
m²V2

Yes. The whole crew had 5 day STCW, the captains had radar and arpa and ECDIS, and I have VSO, FSO, and a ton of other junk that I have to renew next year.

Additionally I am a III/1 through III/6 Chief Engineer with all of those bells and whistles as well.

 

[Jcp2]

Hi Ken,

I wonder how a 101+ ton vessel can cover expenses with only 12 paying passenger? A pro forma for this type of business doesn't seem to pencil out.

cheers,
m²V2

Cargo freighter that carries occasional passengers on the side. I think of Indiana Jones traveling by map.

 

[KenGordon]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for wanting some clarification on this. I think the UK system for vessel design, inspection, and operation is interesting.

For a vessel of more than 6 pax, the vessel must meet rather strict design criteria, be inspected, and issued a COI (Certificate of Inspection). For vessels greater than 100 gross tons, a vessel need not be inspected if it has one paying passenger but not more than 12. In all case a licensed captain needs to operate the vessel.

I wonder how a 101+ ton vessel can cover expenses with only 12 paying passenger? A pro forma for this type of business doesn't seem to pencil out.

I don't know of any 101+ gross ton vessels that fall into this category. I was a west coast skipper, Florida has more big yachts than the West Coast, maybe large yachts use this exemption (loophole)? I don't know.



They both seem active? I got them from the same page. I think the page is an official UK government site.
Small craft codes



Yes, depending on their category:
Area Category 2 - Up to 60 miles from a safe haven; Area Category 1 - Up to 150 miles from a safe haven; Area Category 0 – Unrestricted service.

Area category 6 is 3miles.



Ah, Oh! Did you need STCW training or did that eliminate the international requirement?

cheers,
m²V2

Here is a typical day boat The Boat
And here a couple of liveaboards which are over 100 tons. MV Valhalla liveaboard dive boat - Orkney and Shetland Charters
And a hybrid not actually a liveaboard Mv Huskyan with accommodation on land.

The first is £600/day, the others about £8k/week upwards depending on where they are, but including accommodation.

I think they are too cheap but divers are not known for spending.

 

[Wookie]

Here is a typical day boat The Boat
And here a couple of liveaboards which are over 100 tons. MV Valhalla liveaboard dive boat - Orkney and Shetland Charters
And a hybrid not actually a liveaboard Mv Huskyan with accommodation on land.

The first is £600/day, the others about £8k/week upwards depending on where they are, but including accommodation.

I think they are too cheap but divers are not known for spending.

600 a day per diver seems a little steep.

 

[BoundForElsewhere]

athwartships

My new favorite word.

So does no help apply to disabled or children divers?

 

[VsubT]

Then, a real diving boat should give you the option of being "sherpaed" in and out of the site.

Into Thin Air by Krakauer is illustrative of what can happen when self-reliance and a true apprenticeship attitude are ignored in dangerous environments, especially when money is involved. Sometimes a line needs to be drawn, and it’s not always clear where.

Ask yourself: if someone demonstrates a clear risk to you as a dive business owner, are you willing to bet your boat / business / livelihood on that person performing under stress? Even further, to take deliberate steps (Sherpa assistance) to enable that risk to continue?

This question isn’t unique to diving. I’ve watched similar scenarios play out in aviation, skydiving, and whitewater instruction and guiding. The best answer I’ve seen to whether or not a “Sherpa” option should be available is maybe. It’s a judgment call, which is unsatisfying to the box-checkers who want black or white answers.

There are some great responses in this thread that indicate everything from valet diving to solo diving is possible for tech dives from boats. It’s all good, in the right circumstances.

Lance