Boat diving.Do we have it all wrong?!

[drk5036]

Ok, I don't do a lot of boat dives they charters I've been on....

If you put your fins on while seated the crew will help you walk to the end to giant stride off. This is done by them holding your tank and offering a arm if you want it so you don't fall.

If you climb on with fins they will do the same.

I grab the ladder, remove and pass up fins then climb up the ladder, the crew will sometimes grab the tank on the last couple steps and ask if I have my footing.

Is this help necessary, no but I appreciate not falling in full gear while in steel tank, heavy drysuit undergarments etc.

I think this is not the Type of help they’re talking about here. You’re still carrying your gear. The situation in question seems like the diver couldn’t support the doubles, basically at all. They were being completely supported by the boat staff.

Was there a thread regarding the original even and is it still alive or gone?

 

[formernuke]

I think this is not the Type of help they’re talking about here. You’re still carrying your gear. The situation in question seems like the diver couldn’t support the doubles, basically at all. They were being completely supported by the boat staff.

Was there a thread regarding the original even and is it still alive or gone?

Its still around it was brought up in a thread about AN/DP procedures class.

I mentioned it because others of stated that boat staff shouldn't help divers getting back on the boat, divers shouldn't be passing any gear up etc.

 

[JBFG]

The person in question that this post is referring to is unable to climb a dive ladder in backmount doubles and has trouble unclipping stage/deco bottles to the point where the boat crew has to do EVERYTHING for them. This is not safe. When a diver needs full-on assistance EVERY DIVE, EVERY TIME, this is not safe. Repeated emphasis here is intentional.

And how do YOU (emphasis added as well) know that? How many time have you dove with that diver?!? or perhaps are you just talking out of your P valve?

 

[drl]

I never saw the original thread, but I dive Great Lakes wrecks when I can’t get somewhere warmer, and I decided a long time ago that I will never be a tech diver because I am unlikely to be able to climb a bucking boat ladder in double hp steel 100s. I’m in my 60s, 5’2”, 120 pounds; some days getting out with a single tank and dry suit weighting is a struggle. Not because I’m not strong enough to climb the ladder, but because I’m short, and Great Lakes dive boats are designed for tall men. That last step, when my legs aren’t long enough to reach the swim platform readily and my arms aren’t long enough to reach a handle for stability, is tricky, and I usually require a hand, literally, so I don’t end up back in the drink. Sorry if this offends the “ you gotta be totally self-sufficient” crew, that I require a little help, but I also respect my limits and won’t be going tech. YMMV.

 

[rjack321]

It’s not a matter of whether I can or can’t do it. I’m just not stupid enough to do it. I drop the weight and climb aboard safely.

Unless its a RIB you will need to climb the ladder or not dive here. We dont have lifts and floating your doubles behind the boat is just not done. In part because they crash into the hull, can hurt other divers, and someone needs to haul them aboard eventually anyway. In rough seas taking off your doubles is more dangerous than just getting your weight on the ladder.

Hauling deco bottles aboard that are on line isnt too bad, one 80 at a time weighs 45lbs. A set of doubles plus a V weight and SS plate is at least 90lbs. Get those aboard using the big muscles in your thighs, not your arms or the arms of the crew.
Boats actually setup for tech diving in the USA have ladders and railings so that the vast majority of divers can climb aboard with their main tanks (or CCR) on their back.

 

[shoredivr]

I never saw the original thread, but I dive Great Lakes wrecks when I can’t get somewhere warmer, and I decided a long time ago that I will never be a tech diver because I am unlikely to be able to climb a bucking boat ladder in double hp steel 100s. I’m in my 60s, 5’2”, 120 pounds; some days getting out with a single tank and dry suit weighting is a struggle. Not because I’m not strong enough to climb the ladder, but because I’m short, and Great Lakes dive boats are designed for tall men. That last step, when my legs aren’t long enough to reach the swim platform readily and my arms aren’t long enough to reach a handle for stability, is tricky, and I usually require a hand, literally, so I don’t end up back in the drink. Sorry if this offends the “ you gotta be totally self-sufficient” crew, that I require a little help, but I also respect my limits and won’t be going tech. YMMV.

Yes I have noticed the ladder spaces/handrails issue too. Some people designing the ladders don’t seem to think about diver height. It’s not all about strength, it’s also about reach. But let’s thump on about fitness.

The best boats I’ve been on have easily accessible hand grabs/rails. In this example, photo taken by a buddy, there’s red vertical outside rails on the swim platform on the port and starboard sides, and the centre silver rail the diver is holding on to. All rails are easy to reach from any step.

Once all the divers are out of the water, the centre silver rail is removed and stowed before the gate is closed. The person who designed this thought about short divers, tall divers, all divers. I can make it up this ladder in doubles, singles and sidemount.

Still promoting the lift idea to prevent bubble shunting though.

*Edit: the boat is the AMG out of Waupoos, Ontario, now owned by ABUCS SCUBA in Brockville Ontario. The guy who designed this is Wayne Green, as far as I know.

 

[2airishuman]

My wife, who does not dive, has over the years come to suffer several interrelated medical conditions that affect her mobility and stamina. She likes to swim and snorkel. We have a boat; I encourage her to swim from the boat. We anchor in shallow water, usually 3-4 feet.

Generally, it is necessary for me to partially lift her back aboard, because most days she cannot climb the ladder without significant assistance, even though she is not carrying anything.

We find that she lives in a sort of grey area because she does not have a clear-cut disability -- like being wheelchair bound or having a missing limb. There is, generally, compassion, accommodation, and assistance available for those with clear-cut disabilities. There are also well-defined expectations regarding demonstrated ability where safety may be a concern.

The grey area she is in does not make her eligible for programs specifically tailored to provide assistance for disabled persons nor does she receive the accommodation of disability in the workplace that would be guaranteed if, for example, she had a missing limb. Yet there are many people I have met with missing limbs that are functionally much more capable than my wife.

And at the same time she is unable to participate in many activities without considerable assistance, often with the result that she is unable to participate at all in things she previously enjoyed, because the assistance she requires is unavailable. She has, while traveling, enjoyed some fantastic trips that pushed her abilities, with assistance, and we have tipped generously.

We took a Rainbow Reef boat out of Key Largo a couple of years ago and snorkeled at the Christ of the Abyss statute while my kids (and everyone else on the boat) went SCUBA diving. She had a great time. I stayed right by her and helped her back on the boat, and the DMs helped too.

But she has also been the target of the sort of frustration and rule-setting on the part of activity organizers of various kinds in ways that have parallels to the topic of this thread. The details don't matter much but it's the same sort of "everyone has to carry their own stuff" situation, but without the safety dimension. Many times I see these interactions degenerate into petty disagreements, because it is human nature to expect everyone to push equally hard on the metaphorical wheel and she just can't.

Clear, reasonable, objective standards that are communicated up front help depersonalize these sorts of conflicts.

Regarding dive boats particularly I will observe that while inspected vessels in the USA may have great difficulty fitting a personnel lift, I don't believe it is particularly burdensome for them to fit a davit capable of lifting a twinset (etc) out of the water so that the diver can climb the ladder without their kit, and without the crew being stuck hauling it out hand-over-hand.

I have shared this video before but I will let you ponder how many tech divers you know who would be uncomfortable with this shore dive in a mere 60' of water in an inland lake.

 

[lowviz]

It’s not all about strength, it’s also about reach. But let’s thump on about fitness.

Maybe another POV for your consideration:

A Christmas-tree ladder (what is the non-denominational term for the same?) is everything to me. You grab and tuck at the beginning of the downstroke. Up one step (each foot) at the top of the upstroke. Tuck for the next downstroke and ride it out. All the mates see is constant progress on your part. No problemo...

 

[Celt]

Unless its a RIB you will need to climb the ladder or not dive here. We dont have lifts and floating your doubles behind the boat is just not done. In part because they crash into the hull, can hurt other divers, and someone needs to haul them aboard eventually anyway. In rough seas taking off your doubles is more dangerous than just getting your weight on the ladder.

Hauling deco bottles aboard that are on line isnt too bad, one 80 at a time weighs 45lbs. A set of doubles plus a V weight and SS plate is at least 90lbs. Get those aboard using the big muscles in your thighs, not your arms or the arms of the crew.
Boats actually setup for tech diving in the USA have ladders and railings so that the vast majority of divers can climb aboard with their main tanks (or CCR) on their back.

If the deco bottles and other gear need to be handed up then the twins can be handed as well. With a heavy sea running climbing a ladder weighed down with a twinset is even more precarious. The twins can be sent up last and the diver is free to time the heave of the ladder with no weight on. Not been willing to do something is entirely different to not been able. In 50 years of diving with tourists, club divers and commercial divers I’ve yet to meet a diver not willing to take the gear from the man or woman coming behind them.

 

[bakodiver391]

Having worked on a tech liveaboard for 9 years, i can say that expecting the crew to dead lift a set of doubles out of the water is a definite no-no. Remember, the tanks are below the crew member's foot level, which means there is no way to "lift with your legs". The crew member is hunched over "like a dog frigging a football". and I have seen big, fit men destroy their backs attempting this move. Stage tanks, cameras, no problem, but never doubles of any description. And if you're diving a single tank BCD with integrated weights, hand up the weight pouches separately, if you expect the crew to lift your bc and tank.