Boat capsized in pompano beach?

[DandyDon]

First we had cyber divers in this thread, and then cyber-captains. It only stands to reason that now the cyber-attorneys are chiming in. Isnt it about time to put this thread to rest? I think a cyber-psychic would be the next appropriate poster otherwise.

Yeah, why have a discussion board anyway. Close SB, right?

 

[Scubakevdm]

First we had cyber divers in this thread, and then cyber-captains. It only stands to reason that now the cyber-attorneys are chiming in. Isnt it about time to put this thread to rest? I think a cyber-psychic would be the next appropriate poster otherwise.

For what it's worth, there have been actual captains posting here, boat credentialed and not. (In my opinion, the credentialed part is somewhat immaterial in this discussion, and that experience running in and out of these inlets with a ground swell is what is important). They are sharing aspects of what they do that are normally invisible to the public, sort of a behind the scenes look. I would recommend that instead of minimizing the value their contributions, that people take notes.
Just like we have all been trained, there are inherent risks to diving, and I'm sure that everybody onboard that boat signed a waiver that acknowledged this, and in addition acknowledged that there are risks inherent to being on a boat.
I'm guessing that very few people actually understood those risks that day, so, although this was a tragic event, through discussion, a better understanding of these risks might be realized and benefit the diving community as a whole.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I don't have any expectation that the CG will pay any attention whatsoever to my feelings on this matter....and I don't think this is a place where any legal decision or culpability will be decided...However, I am telling a large group of divers, that as a diver, I think it would be foolish for one of us to pay any attention to the PFD regulations.... I would ignore it absolutely, and do what I thought best for myself and buddy(s). If there were some sheep grazing on the boat, I'd make sure they had pfd's on and plenty to eat.

I guess it is all about knowing and respecting the laws of the place where you are diving. I suspect you would be unpopular with the rest of the divers on the boat when the captain went back to the dock to let you off if you ignored the call to put the pfd on before crossing the bar. The captain would not want to pay the fine or risk losing his boat by ignoring the law.

 

[danvolker]

I guess it is all about knowing and respecting the laws of the place where you are diving. I suspect you would be unpopular with the rest of the divers on the boat when the captain went back to the dock to let you off if you ignored the call to put the pfd on before crossing the bar. The captain would not want to pay the fine or risk losing his boat by ignoring the law.

For what it is worth, I have met an awful lot of boat captains in my time diving, and one thing I am pretty sure of...when it comes to something like a "survival situation", they would be very happy to do their CG message the law dictates, and to then see many able bodied divers on the boat choose to wear the dive gear I referred to instead. The law would be that they tell passengers the CG wants them in PFD's....The law ..the CG, is not dealing with divers specifically--it is dealing a population of non-divers and non-swimmers that are on a boat that is about to sink. In any scenario like this, Sandra and Bill Mee and I and any of our other friends, would easily swim in to shore from ANY dive site off of Palm Beach, and into any inlet. We would not accept pfds. Period. The captain does not have the authority to FORCE a passenger to wear pfd instead of their dive gear...So if a ticket was to be issued, it would have to be to me or my friends.
Let's see....stupid ticket and many more years of diving with long life...or....wear the pfd and drown, but no ticket and complete compliance with the CG and the law...Gee...this is a tough one

I am not being snotty to you bowlofpetunias...the sarcasm is aimed at the system we live in, where people allow others...expect others, to make them safe.... I reject this.

 

[Zieg]

Dan, I do agree with you to a point. Having worked on the water my whole life, so far, one thing has always been pointed out when people are asked to put on a life jacket and refused. The life jacket will keep your head above water if you're knocked unconscious.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, I do agree with you to a point. Having worked on the water my whole life, so far, one thing has always been pointed out when people are asked to put on a life jacket and refused. The life jacket will keep your head above water if you're knocked unconscious.

Hey, all I am saying is that in a potential survival situation, YOU think about the best course of action for the people you are with( friends/family) and yourself....
I have done so many adventure sports in my life, and been in so many sudden and potentially catastrophic events ( bike crashes in races, car races, ski races/crashes, hang gliding, sailboats pitch forking ( end over end flip with hobe cat and also Lasers in storm wind) and of course, diving in high seas and bad weather in all of those days since the early 80's when I started diving charterboats heavily --cert in 72).....with this exposure to sudden upside down "the sky is falling" kind of stuff, I know enough about how a dive boat flipping is likely to be, or a sinking, for me to figure out for myself what the best course of action is going to be. Time slows down, and you move the way you need to, as the crash evolves. I think this is true for many people, but not all....for those that it is NOT true for, the PFD had better be worn.

 

[Ana]

For what it is worth, I have met an awful lot of boat captains in my time diving, and one thing I am pretty sure of...when it comes to something like a "survival situation", they would be very happy to do their CG message the law dictates, and to then see many able bodied divers on the boat choose to wear the dive gear I referred to instead. The law would be that they tell passengers the CG wants them in PFD's....The law ..the CG, is not dealing with divers specifically--it is dealing a population of non-divers and non-swimmers that are on a boat that is about to sink. In any scenario like this, Sandra and Bill Mee and I and any of our other friends, would easily swim in to shore from ANY dive site off of Palm Beach, and into any inlet. We would not accept pfds. Period. The captain does not have the authority to FORCE a passenger to wear pfd instead of their dive gear...So if a ticket was to be issued, it would have to be to me or my friends.
Let's see....stupid ticket and many more years of diving with long life...or....wear the pfd and drown, but no ticket and complete compliance with the CG and the law...Gee...this is a tough one

I am not being snotty to you bowlofpetunias...the sarcasm is aimed at the system we live in, where people allow others...expect others, to make them safe.... I reject this.

I understand your philosophy about rather using dive gear instead of pdf's. Also realize that using your typical charters you can probably do as you consider safer in a situation when the Capt calls for people to get pdf's. There are certain things I can do when diving on 2 or 3 charters in South Florida but as a general rule, when you dive off a new location on a new charter, like most of the people on this charter were they can't just choose to follow or not follow capt rules.

How many times do you see people coming in your typical charters showing up, telling everyone how amazing and knowledgeable they are. What percentage of that group turns out to be accurate on their self-assessment?
A sane capt will tell you: follow my rules or get off my boat. and probably no refund.... rightfully so I may add

I won't even go into working boats,,, because it obviously wouldn't apply but again you do as the capt say or you are out.

 

[danvolker]

Ana,
I will follow the boat rules 99.9% of the time, with no problem.... Few members of SB have ever been on a boat about to sink, and actually had a captain tell them what he wanted them to do....few have been on one that the captain was afraid might sink, and had the captain give commands in this situation.... I have been in the latter....and in this case, the captain told us the law, and then let us remember we had some effective dive gear as well....He wanted us to have the beast chance. I am friends with a lot of Captains in Florida, and I can't think of one in this situation that would not care more about the survival of each passenger, than about a poorly thought out regulation.

There are more than a few boats in florida where whenn the Captain gives the briefing, he tells about the PFD..and then also right then, reminds us we have very high end flotation devices called BC's that we could choose over his CG recomendation, should we desire.... There is no way I am the only one here that has heard this many times.

..... The last point on this is that if the dive boat is about to sink or flip, it won't matter a great deal ( in the scheme of things) if I refuse to wear a pfd and violate the captains rules, because the boat will not be running any more....
If it does not sink, and I did not like the way the captain handled things, I would not use the boat again anyway. But like I said, the boats I use, have a much better policy

 

[Zieg]

Well Dan, BCs are NOT coast guard approved pfds, in any shape or form.

 

[danvolker]

Well Dan, BCs are NOT coast guard approved pfds, in any shape or form.

We all know this. and most of us would consider a $15 pfd as junk we don't need, and grab our BC instead....

If you are planning on being in the water unconscious, then the pfd will be better. There is no way I am planning on being unconscious, Sandra and Bill won't be either, and if anyone of us got the big hit on the head, one of us would deal with the situation.

The PFD is for an unconscious diver or for a non-diver. It is not for an able bodied diver that is not injured. If you are able bodied, uninjured, and could care less about regulations that WERE NOT MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR DIVERS, then you may very well ignore the PFD "suggestion"...and a suggestion is all that it can be.