Blowing off Steam

[uncfnp]

I have been following this thread with interest because I'm confused about current concepts of politeness toward women.

I'm old. In ancient times I was taught to let women first through the door, hold the door for them, hold the chair for them at a restaurant, women always first. Be helpful, etc. Never thought this approach would be offensive to some women.

Now if I hold the door for a woman (pretty, ugly, young, old, doesn't matter), rarely do I get a pleasant nod or thank you (mostly from the old ones). I more often get a surprised look or a scowl. On the other hand, if I get discouraged and don't hold the door, I feel guilty. I guess if I see a woman diver fall in the surf, thrown about by waves, I should stand around unless asked for help. I certainly don't want to be accused of copping a feel (through a wet suit and a BCD, really?)

Oh well, I guess I'll continue to do as my mother taught: be helpful without touching, not because women are inferior, but out of respect.

The rule? Treat that woman, female, lady as you would any other person, other, it...with common courtesy. That is the appropriate response for you (generic you). It is then on the other individual to choose their response. Their response will depend on their history, prior experiences or just if its been a good or bad day for them. But that is on them. Possible bad behavior by others should not dictate your own behavior.

 

[Gareth J]

I guess what we're seeing here is one of the fundamental differences between the European style "we're on this outing together" CMAS/BSAC club diving mindset and the US style "I've paid for the trip, so I'm entitled" mindset.
.

I think the 'club' factor is a big part of it.

Also, the way boats are run in the UK (Europe?). Just a skipper, normally no crew, certainly no DM.

A fully kitted diver is not a very stable individual on a rolling boat. Most divers injuries are due to falls, trips or moving equipment. Its not just the kitted diver that gets hurt, its the individual they land on, or they drop equipment on.

Its one thing walking around a boat on a flat sea, its another when the boat is pitching and rolling, which is how it normally is in our neck of the woods.

 

[kmarks]

I have been following this thread with interest because I'm confused about current concepts of politeness toward women.

I'm old. In ancient times I was taught to let women first through the door, hold the door for them, hold the chair for them at a restaurant, women always first. Be helpful, etc. Never thought this approach would be offensive to some women.

Now if I hold the door for a woman (pretty, ugly, young, old, doesn't matter), rarely do I get a pleasant nod or thank you (mostly from the old ones). I more often get a surprised look or a scowl. On the other hand, if I get discouraged and don't hold the door, I feel guilty. I guess if I see a woman diver fall in the surf, thrown about by waves, I should stand around unless asked for help. I certainly don't want to be accused of copping a feel (through a wet suit and a BCD, really?)

Oh well, I guess I'll continue to do as my mother taught: be helpful without touching, not because women are inferior, but out of respect.

This is a generational change. Growing up in the south, it was imperative that you showed extra politeness towards women. That meant opening doors, pulling out chairs, ladies first, and all that. While this is still true in many regions, it's becoming frowned upon more and more because it's not politeness, it's objectification. You are implying that the women are not capable of doing these things themselves or are in some way not equal to you. If you change the way you talk and act around women than how you behave around only other men, you aren't showing more respect, you are disrespecting them because you are saying they are different and shouldn't be treated equally.

 

[Gareth J]

C so if you aren't the diver's buddy, the DM, or the guide,

The likelyhood of finding a Guide or DM on a British dive boat is something between 0 and 0.
Which is why the divers look after the divers.
The skippers got other responsibilities, dropping us in safely, and most importantly, picking us up safely.

 

[Marie13]

A fully kitted diver is not a very stable individual on a rolling boat. Most divers injuries are due to falls, trips or moving equipment. Its not just the kitted diver that gets hurt, its the individual they land on, or they drop equipment on.

Its one thing walking around a boat on a flat sea, its another when the boat is pitching and rolling, which is how it normally is in our neck of the woods.

I wish more people would get this. I see fully kitted divers, complete with fins on, waking back to their spot at the bench after a dive. I refuse to do that. I just feel unsteady as heck without my fins! Due to my knee issues, I ask for a hand getting up from bench. I walk with assistance just onto the swim platform (walk through transom), and hang on to the railing while I lift up my feet behind me, one at a time for my fins. I feel safest this way. I’ve seen divers slide across the back of the boat and end up falling on their knees. After a dive, I’ll ask for help getting my fins off. I also get help - a few pulls on tank valve - coming up the ladder. Thank goodness for fin on ladders.

I’m also short and with my HP80s, I need help getting up from bench as I can’t get tank out of the rack area geared up without the little extra help.

Pic below is of my usual boat (DRIS’ Sun Dog). Small 6 pack. I’m the one on the right in the Fusion. That’s Chicago in the background.

 

[kmarks]

@Marie13 and @Gareth J, you're both talking about situations where there is at least an implied request for help if not outright asked for. If you regularly go out with the same group of people and you all help each other in and out of the water as part of your group culture, nobody in that group is going to bat an eye if you help them climb a ladder or walk to the back of the boat, but they might get upset if you don't offer to help when it is expected.

In most cases, extending a hand to help somebody up on the boat, even if you don't know them, isn't going to be found to be offensive, but grabbing somebody by the shoulder to guide them to the back of the boat or grabbing at fins and BC straps when they didn't ask for it probably will. To the original point of this thread, men doing this to women, but not other men, will often get interpreted as a sort of slimy "Let me help ya out there, schweethart!"

 

[Storker]

In most cases, extending a hand to help somebody up on the boat, even if you don't know them, isn't going to be found to be offensive, but grabbing somebody by the shoulder to guide them to the back of the boat or grabbing at fins and BC straps when they didn't ask for it probably will.

I guess I'm not "most cases" then. Provided that the help isn't obviously condescending, I'll probably be grateful for some help when I'm loaded down with some 40kg of gear. If it isn't necessary, I'll at least say thanks for the effort and perhaps explain politely that it wasn't necessary. I'd rather prefer someone to be somewhat over-helpful than being a jerk.

 

[Bob DBF]

I put the helping with the lifting, etc down to the positive training I have had. The result of being in a club environment. It has always been a club attitude that we look after each other.

Never been in a club, but picked up that attitude from my mentors back inthe day under the divers should act like buddies to other divers concept. I pitch in when there is work to do, I ask if someone seems to need help, and will intervene if events are turning into an accident.

In real life I hold doors and elevators, I offer help if someone is struggling. The large majority of the time no one has an issue, of course they could be saying under their breath that I'm so old I don't know any better.


Bob

 

[aquacat8]

Well, I’m not all that old, and I must say I DO appreciate the traditional courtesies that a gentleman offers a lady, and if they are not forthcoming, I have to admit, I will assume that the man in question is rather low class, and I certainly would not be interested in him in the special ways in which a lady is sometimes interested in a man.

 

[uncfnp]

This is not specific to gender but it seems that courtesy is becoming a thing of the past. It’s not that the younger generation, there I said it, elects not to be courteous but rather that they don't seem to even know what it is. It seems courtesy is gone and down right rudeness and “its all about me” is the new social norm.

Rant over...