Biggest thing killing dive shops?

[Edward3c]

But BSAC courses can be taught commercially... Indeed many instructors do simply teach people to dive and never see them again: BSAC Diver Training Programme offered by rectotec

And there is nothing stopping someone joining a club, learning to dive - and then saying goodbye. I get that BSAC is a lot more than just a training organization. However, this was about the assertion that you must pay a lot to get decent training and the point I'm making is that isn't the case.

Yes, there are BSAC commercial centres, but they normally provided members with ad-hoc lessons to complete courses started in a Branch, just like I provide monthly open water training sessions for members in South Scotland, as part of the Regional Team. When a commercial centre is multi agency they normally steer customers to the agency that provides the greatest return, which is quite often PADI. The exception is when teaching recreation diving courses to the UK military, qualifications must be approved by BSAC, Regulation 14, Defence Diving Regulations (DSA02-DMR, January 2017).

Your right people do join clubs, learn to dive then leave. That isn’t the norm.

 

[tursiops]

I recently bought a new camera and housing in person at an underwater photo and video shop, Reef Photo in Ft Lauderdale. I spent about 4 hours in the shop the day I bought it, they helped immensely in my choosing from 2 final candidates. They went over the camera and housing in great detail so that I would have an understanding of most of the features. They also helped me pick good starting settings to get me going. I have emailed the store 3 or 4 times with questions that have come up and they always get back to me promptly, with thoughtful responses. I could have saved a little money buying online, but I would have missed out on the personal attention, education, and follow-up. I became friends with one of the divers I met in the shop, we dive together occasionally, he always has a few helpful hints for improvement or flexibility. For me, worth every penny, and much more

Reef Photo is the most customer-oriented shop I have ever been in. If they sell it, I buy from them, except for incidentals like Moisture Munchers, which they don't carry anyway.

 

[DevonDiver]

... it's totally wrong. Go to Bans on Koh Tao and tell me that the model you are knocking doesn't work.

I know Ban's quite well, having lived and worked previously on Koh Tao.

For me, it's the epitome of everything wrong in the scuba industry.

But, yes, there are naturally exceptions to any norm.

Let's look at why..

The instructors work for peanuts, or less, churning out endless courses of 8 pax every 2.5 days. Most have zero experience beyond Bans and Koh Tao. Most are zero-to-hero backpacker kids just out to get laid and party for a year. Those that don't flog enough continued education courses get sacked.

When I was there, most were working illegally also.

None received any medical cover, pension, holiday pay etc... gross exploitation to drive a system based entirely on profit-by-volume.

Drug use and working whilst hungover or still inebriated was far from uncommon.

Open water courses are the cheapest in the world, with accommodation thrown in... but nobody actually gains any diving competency. Their students can be seen bicycle-kicking, or even walking, around the dive sites, flailing and barely under any semblance of control.

Students have "fun" because they party and get well entertained by the dive staff. Not educated in diving though...

The place earns money because it churns through literally thousands of certifications per year. It can do so only because it has access to a unique demographic of backpacker gap year kids who want to tick off scuba diving from their bucket list.. courtesy of Koh Tao's proximity to the Koh Phangan Full Moon Party..the other backpacker 'bucket list' in the region. (and because of some unique Thai island politics... which I won't go into...)

But the real money is made in the in-house bars and nightclub. I suspect that's where Bans gets rich. Nightly parties with hundreds of drunken kids until after 2am.. Diving is merely the loss leader that gets the kids to stay there.

The walls are dripping with agency 'Certificates of Excellence' or 'Achievement'. Spotty, perma-hangover, kids with 6 months diving experience are "Gold Elite" instructors.. The agency regional managers etc turn a blind eye to obvious training quality issues...

I remember a decade ago there was even some friction because the dive industry in Australia (next stop on the backpacker trail for divers) was making noises about not accepting certifications issued by the sausage-factories on Koh Tao.

What Bans, and the other sausage factories DO achieve is to provoke the most inane and self-defeating price competition. They can do so because agencies turn a conveniently blind eye to the abuse of standards and the exploitation of naive dive "pros".

This, in your eyes, represents a triumph for the diving industry to emulate??

 

[DevonDiver]

.. . Thailand has somewhere around $6000/year average income, and getting $50 per student goes pretty far if you train 4-8 students per week.

Commissions must have risen by a significant factor since I was on Koh Tao.. LMFAO

The insanely high turnover of instructors in places like Tao is because most instructors can't earn a liveable salary.. even working illegally... and even suffering an extremely meagre lifestyle.

When their savings run low, they go.

It's pocket money for an extended vacation... primarily to party and get laid. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let's be honest, nobody works on Koh Tao because it's the best diving to be had in SE Asia..

 

[DevonDiver]

.. most businesses from Asia do the same thing. And most are profitable. They simply provide all courses up to instructor at low prices. They make smaller margins but sell more courses.

You think?

Diving businesses go bust left, right and center. Even with illegally working dive staff who don't receive a minimum wage or any legally mandated employment benefits.

What profits these companies isn't the diving... it's the other income streams like accommodation, restaurants and bars. They'd still be profitable even if the dive shop closed.

But if tourism and/or the global economy takes a dip, owners often go home with their tail between their legs.

Not that many owners would openly admit how desperate their situation is... because many are harbouring a dream of flogging their money-pit dive shops... and they can't do that if the next mug looking to "buy into the dream" understands what a disaster it really is...

 

[DevonDiver]

If you equate price with quality,... , if they are going to tell people that unless they pay more money they will get a terrible service I'm going to point out its rubbish.

The link between cost and perceived value is well proven in retail and marketing.

But that's entirely beside the point.

The issue is that dive shops should engage in a business model whereby they charge a REASONABLE price, based on achieving a realistic desired profitability for providing good quality service.

That's different to what typically happens..whereby dive shops feel obliged to conform to a bare minimum local costing (due to cost competition) and are forced to reduce quality of service to meet some small expectation of profit.

And all the while agencies are telling them that the 'real' profit should come from other income streams like retail and vacation sales.

What empowers this ludicrous situation is that agencies will promote a notion to consumers that all courses are of an equally good standard.

With agencies promoting that entirely fictitious notion, it becomes very hard for a quality-focused dive centre to differentiate itself from lower-quality, lower-cost competition.

With dive training, the consumer expectation on quality doesn't primarily stem from the individual dive business... it comes from the agency initials printed on the c-card they'll receive.

That situation is exacerbated in diving because the average consumer is uniquely unable to identify what factors constitute greater or lesser quality training.

The industry does a good job in creating a smokescreen to best promote that difficulty in ascertaining quality.

That's one reason so many dive pros are more like entertainers than educators..

It's also one reason why so many dive pros try to rectify training deficiencies by cajoling students to invest AGAIN in more training courses. Not to progress, but to fix the under-training from the previous course/s.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Can you buy comparable quality blades elsewhere that work in their razors?

If not, that approach may not work for the LDS.

If I understand correctly, there's a sense the current scuba industrial approach is sell training cheap, make your money on gear sales, the Internet broke that model, so the industry needs to evolve toward more expensive but more consistently high quality training (as the rule, not just people citing anecdotal examples who do this) with less reliance on gear sales.

Either way, people will get the training & gear they want and most will eventually become less profitable. Unless he goes tech, or pursues dive professional status, many divers don't need much more than AOW, Rescue, Nitrox, maybe Solo for some, and a good set of gear. In other words, a diver may become less of a cash cow over time.

Some only certify to vacation dive & rent gear at the destination, so perhaps it could help make them more profitable to train locally.

Richard.

...and some divers only do the activity for 3 or 4 years, so even the residual spending on trinket items, gear maintenance, etc. completely goes away for the LDS. I know it’s only a small amount after initial sales, but every bit helps.

 

[rgdiver1]

A few years ago, a friend who lives in a rural area wanted to buy a DUI drysuit. I recommended a local dealer not too far him. When he called that dealer, whoever answered the phone didn't know anything about drysuits and didn't offer to get some one who did. My friend bought his drysuit elsewhere, and the dealer I recommended lost a big sale. I think this sort of thing happens all the time. I could go on and on, but it all boils down to poor customer service.

 

[scubafanatic]

Disagree.
I lead a fair number of dive trips, mostly from the East coast somewhere, to the Caribbean and Asia and other places. Cold water, yes, no one wants to do that except for special places like Galapagos, Antarctica, and the Sardine Run. Baby sitting? Sure, they like it, they are happy to pay for it, but except for one lady with a bad back, do not factor it into their decisions. The baby-sitting in (for example) Boanire is minimal: from a boat you get a guide in the water, but you don't need to follow him or her. No help with tank switch-overs. From shore you are definitely NOT baby-sat..
I think your exposure to diving away from California must be very limited.

The Texas Flower Gardens live aboards are also 'babysitter-free' zones......diving 120 miles off the nearest coast.

 

[Wookie]

The Texas Flower Gardens live aboards are also 'babysitter-free' zones......diving 120 miles off the nearest coast.

As are the California Liveaboards. 34 divers stacked 3 high on a 85 foot boat. They ain't there for the hot tub....