Berating an "Instructor" on a dive boat. How should I have handled differently?

[danvolker]

Couple points, Dan ... first off, I think as usual you're speaking from the perspective of the self-appointed spokesperson for the DIR community. We've been down this path pretty much every time someone posts a thread like this one, and as I've pointed out before, while your advice may have validity the delivery only perpetuates a stereotype of the DIR diver as arrogant and uncompromising. Believe it or not, that tends to get a negative reaction from a lot of people.

Bob,
I see that you and a few others "think this" about some of my posts. The thing is, you guys get this from assuming my world view by coloring my message with your own ideas of what's important, and of how things are......One basic place this breaks down, is about "what is, a better recreational diver"....We are posting on a recreational thread.....and to me, if I am discussing how good a diver someone needs to be for a typical recreational reef.....the majority of recreational divers can safely do all the same recreational dives that I do...and to be "BETTER", which is the ego and judgemental implication you color my words with, then I would have to be able to have more fun on each of these recreational dives than they do....which is of course, ridiculous. I absolutely believe recreational diving is about having FUN...to be a great recreational diver, you have to be able to have lots of fun on each dive.
Bob, please tell me HOW you can have an "ego" over something like this? Diving is too easy for most recreational divers, for them to even consider challenge or competition--it is just not there.
The big "BUT" is when a scenario gets discussed about the divers that do not yet have experience, and who have been taught poorly. Ego can absolutely come into play in a population of dive instructors, as some will be a great deal better than others....And some instructors will be downright dangerous....and we just heard about one bordering on this, in the minds of many SB readers ( from the OP).

I don't post here as an instructor, and I don't want to be perceived as an instructor....it's not my mission when I dive. I do want to have lots of fun, and there are lots of people on Scubaboard who I like, and enjoy chatting with....and I like sharing ideas on how to have more FUN with them.
When I hear about a practice that is opposite fun--that may even be dangerous, then I get inclined to feel that I would not want any of the people I like (or even for a group of divers in general) --I would not want them to have their fun destroyed, and potentially suffer an accident. This is not ego posting, this is just the way I think people are supposed to interact with their friends.

Second, unless Diver0001 is trying to moderate the thread ... which he is not ... he's just another poster. So your appeal to authority in this case is meaningless, and amounts to nothing more than mod-bashing ... which is something you tend to do with some regularity, and is completely unjustified.

When Diver0001 posted, with his MODERATOR BADGE flying proudly in the breeze, his posts gets perceived as that of a moderator. You just can't un-ring this bell.
If that is not bad enough, he did not read my earlier posts, or enough of the other posts to understand context. And...he was "attacking me"....So i guess it is just fine for a MODERATOR to attack a SB member, but it is "mod-bashing", if one of us, responds in kind??????

The OP wasn't complaining about the number of people on the boat ... or the type of boat ... or the choice of dive site ... he was speaking specifically about the actions of one individual. And while he was justified in his concerns, his approach to expressing those concerns tended to be a bit counterproductive. Perhaps that's a lesson more than the OP should take away from this conversation.

So far it seems to me that kr2y5 is the only one who really gets it.

And yeah, all the diving gods just need to stay away from boats that cater to beginner or occasional divers whose skills may not be up to your standards ... for their sake as well as your own ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob, Maybe you should re-read his first post.....I'll help you a bit....at the end of his first post, he says

"If you've read this far -- what would you have done? Should I have continued on with him until he accepted he was wrong? I felt that it would make the situation even worse telling an instructor all the things he did wrong in front of his student. (Once I actually found out he was an instructor). Was I totally wrong, should I have just minded my own business from the beginning?"


If you read my posts, the consistent message is that the NONE of us on SB could have a reasonable "High Ground" kind of behavior on a boat that had the dysfunctional assortment of divers on it, that his post suggested it did. Many of us have found ourselves on such a boat, at least once in our lives, and the take-away message, was that the only way to Win, is not to Play....

The whole categorization of boats for diver interest and skill level, was an important direction I offered to any divers trying to make sure they have as much fun as is possible on their next dive--as well as an important suggestion to assist them in being able to AVOID the terrible situation the OP faced--a situation with no good, universal solution.

And instead of even chatting with me about this direction, instead you and Diver0001 decided to enjoy blaming the obviously evil DIR agenda, then you guys suggest DIR is arrogant and counterproductive , and the whole issue of the "ego" as driving my posts.....And to this I would say, since you have never dived with me, you are posting out of ignorance---you clearly have no idea about why I post on SB....and if you spoke with any of the people that actually do dive with me ( the people that have seen what motivates me first hand), they could shed a great deal of light on what they think motivates my posts on SB.

My guess is that since I will occasionally come off as "anti-poor instructor", and as I think that Dive INSTRUCTORS as a whole, would like the world to see Instructors as a large body of consummate professionals..... you and several others have decided that whatever I say, you should argue with me....

 

[waterpirate]

I believe that boat choice is part of " situational awareness ". It is not about snobbery, or ego. My goal on every voyage is to NEVER have to fill out USCG paperwork ever again. The OP asked for opinions, and got them. He and his buddy could not keep their opinions to themselves. The solution for them would be to in the future only dive on boats where Muppetry is less common, or history will repeat itself for these two.
YMMV
Eric

 

[DaleC]

I think part of the issue has to do with whether people feel the need to correct all the problems they see around them.
When I was younger I felt that way, very sure I knew what was right, and intolerant of what was wrong. Quick to self righteous anger or criticism.
As I get older I find myself less inclined to correct others, adopting a somewhat Laissez Faire attitude.
I think this is partly because I do not want to be the worlds babysitter, partly because I value personal freedom myself, and partly because I got tired of winding up the "bad guy" for spouting off like an idiot.

Sometimes people are going to do weird stuff. That's just a fact of life.

If we are going to confront each person we bump into, in a hostile way, we will wind up living in a hostile, angry world where argument instead of change becomes the norm. Rather than trying to correct others when it is not solicited (which rarely works out well), these days I am more concerned with training my own mind to be more positive in perception and approach.

Positivity is real power, and a positive approach is far more likely to effect change so training the mind to respond that way is to become a more effective person. What I discovered about my younger self was that I was very undisciplined and weak. I only had one tool to solve differences (confrontation/anger) and could not bear the inconvenience of tolerance. Previously I used to stir up emotion but rarely solve problems. Now I try to interfere less, but when I do, I try to be effective.

So, as to what would I have done. Who knows? I would like to think I might have observed the situation, thought "that's weird", recognized it to be potentially hazardous but also remembered I was not hired to keep all other divers safe or teach instructors, probably talked about it quietly with my buddy post dive, perhaps approached the captain quietly and informed him of the practice in case he wanted to do something about it.

But, that's my ideal. This is still a work in progress so I would cut others some slack too.

 

[dmoore19]

It's not the idea, it's the delivery.

 

[DaleC]

It's not the idea, it's the delivery.

Which sums up 95% of the problems between people

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,
I see that you and a few others "think this" about some of my posts. The thing is, you guys get this from assuming my world view by coloring my message with your own ideas of what's important, and of how things are......

You can't run away from your history, Dan ... there's a certain consistency in your posts. It's gotten to the point where you don't really even need to read them anymore to know what you're going to say.

One basic place this breaks down, is about "what is, a better recreational diver"....We are posting on a recreational thread.....and to me, if I am discussing how good a diver someone needs to be for a typical recreational reef.....the majority of recreational divers can safely do all the same recreational dives that I do...and to be "BETTER", which is the ego and judgemental implication you color my words with, then I would have to be able to have more fun on each of these recreational dives than they do....which is of course, ridiculous. I absolutely believe recreational diving is about having FUN...to be a great recreational diver, you have to be able to have lots of fun on each dive.

Actually we're in the Wreck Diving forum ... in the Technical Diving section of the board. We can debate whether or not this thread belongs here, since this wasn't a technical dive. But the only one who's walking about "what is, a better recreational diver" .... is you. The OP wasn't asking that question ... you posted, further down, the question he asked ... we'll get to it in a moment.

Bob, please tell me HOW you can have an "ego" over something like this? Diving is too easy for most recreational divers, for them to even consider challenge or competition--it is just not there.
The big "BUT" is when a scenario gets discussed about the divers that do not yet have experience, and who have been taught poorly. Ego can absolutely come into play in a population of dive instructors, as some will be a great deal better than others....And some instructors will be downright dangerous....and we just heard about one bordering on this, in the minds of many SB readers ( from the OP).

Diving isn't a competition. This dive isn't, apparently, particularly challenging ... which is probably why the boat operator decided to take this level of diver here.

What we heard was once incident ... from the perspective of one individual. You choose to interpret that description in the way you do. I choose to take it for what it is ... chatter on an internet forum. Until we hear from the perspective of the instructor or someone else who was there, it's nothing more than one person's opinion.

I don't post here as an instructor, and I don't want to be perceived as an instructor....it's not my mission when I dive. I do want to have lots of fun, and there are lots of people on Scubaboard who I like, and enjoy chatting with....and I like sharing ideas on how to have more FUN with them.
When I hear about a practice that is opposite fun--that may even be dangerous, then I get inclined to feel that I would not want any of the people I like (or even for a group of divers in general) --I would not want them to have their fun destroyed, and potentially suffer an accident. This is not ego posting, this is just the way I think people are supposed to interact with their friends.

So it's not your idea of fun ... that's a given. My suggestion, then is to dive with the people you enjoy diving with and let others do the same. From the information provided, nobody got hurt, and everyone seems to have had fun except the OP.

When Diver0001 posted, with his MODERATOR BADGE flying proudly in the breeze, his posts gets perceived as that of a moderator. You just can't un-ring this bell.
If that is not bad enough, he did not read my earlier posts, or enough of the other posts to understand context. And...he was "attacking me"....So i guess it is just fine for a MODERATOR to attack a SB member, but it is "mod-bashing", if one of us, responds in kind??????

That's a pretty specious argument. Mods identify themselves as mods, sure ... but unless they're moderating, which he was not, they have every bit as much right to post their opinions on this board as you do. You know this, of course, because it's been pointed out to you repeatedly. What do you suggest, Dan ... forbidding moderators from participating in the board, except for moderating? That's rather childish.

Bob, Maybe you should re-read his first post.....I'll help you a bit....at the end of his first post, he says

"If you've read this far -- what would you have done? Should I have continued on with him until he accepted he was wrong? I felt that it would make the situation even worse telling an instructor all the things he did wrong in front of his student. (Once I actually found out he was an instructor). Was I totally wrong, should I have just minded my own business from the beginning?"

... and maybe you should re-read the paragraphs preceding it. He's asking, specifically, what how he should have responded to that one specific person. Context matters, Dan ... unless you're pursuing an agenda, which you have a history of doing.

If you read my posts, the consistent message is that the NONE of us on SB could have a reasonable "High Ground" kind of behavior on a boat that had the dysfunctional assortment of divers on it, that his post suggested it did. Many of us have found ourselves on such a boat, at least once in our lives, and the take-away message, was that the only way to Win, is not to Play....

... or just don't presume that you're the boat's designated den mother, whose responsibility is to tell everyone else on board how to dive ...

The whole categorization of boats for diver interest and skill level, was an important direction I offered to any divers trying to make sure they have as much fun as is possible on their next dive--as well as an important suggestion to assist them in being able to AVOID the terrible situation the OP faced--a situation with no good, universal solution.

It's a valid point ... and completely irrelevant to the point of the question the OP asked.

And instead of even chatting with me about this direction, instead you and Diver0001 decided to enjoy blaming the obviously evil DIR agenda, then you guys suggest DIR is arrogant and counterproductive , and the whole issue of the "ego" as driving my posts.....

I don't believe DIR is evil. Far from it ... Lord knows I've sent enough people in that direction, including our own resident Borg Queen (it was me who initially told her about GUE and suggested it would be a good fir for her). My issue with you, Dan, is you perpetuate a stereotype that a great many people have worked really hard over the past several years to dispel ... and you're the one who's told us over and over and over how you were the one and original person whose mission was to bring DIR to the rest of the world.

Evangelists often do their cause more harm than good.

And to this I would say, since you have never dived with me, you are posting out of ignorance---you clearly have no idea about why I post on SB....and if you spoke with any of the people that actually do dive with me ( the people that have seen what motivates me first hand), they could shed a great deal of light on what they think motivates my posts on SB.

I know some people who have actually dived with you. Of course you'd get along with them ... they dive like you do. It's the rest of us who sometimes find your message a bit ... self-righteous.

My guess is that since I will occasionally come off as "anti-poor instructor", and as I think that Dive INSTRUCTORS as a whole, would like the world to see Instructors as a large body of consummate professionals..... you and several others have decided that whatever I say, you should argue with me....

Yes, because you project the message that any instructor who isn't a GUE instructor sucks. It gets a bit tiring after a while ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[FinnMom]

The better way of handling would have been to ask yourself if there was anything positive you wanted to accomplish. If what you honestly wanted was to chew out the reel guy because he ticked you off, that's not positive; it might be understandable, but it's not positive.
If what you wanted was not positive, let it go. Nothing good will come of any other action than just letting it go. Trust in karma to pay you back and burn off your aggression w/o laying into anyone.
If you really and truely wanted to accomplish something positive, such as education, you gotta calm down and put some thought into making your 'student' interested or receptive. A negative, angry approach won't achieve this. Justified or not was nothing to do with it - the approach is a no-go because it's ineffective and a waste of your time. If you really want to accomplish something worthwhile, you need swallow your annoyance and attitude at go about it in an effective way.

As someone else already suggested, asking questions, listening and offering how you might have done things while maintaining a neutral, friendly tone would be an example of an effective approach.

 

[waterpirate]

Bob, thanx for that comment! I spit out some of my beer in laughfter! I consider that the sign of a god comment. " our resident Borg Queen ". While that was funny for a while, I think Lynn deserves more credit and respect at this point, based on her post content alone. I hope she still chuckles about being the Queen, she certainly has the chops to declare herself as such, if she chooses.
YMMV
Eric

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob, thanx for that comment! I spit out some of my beer in laughfter! I consider that the sign of a god comment. " our resident Borg Queen ". While that was funny for a while, I think Lynn deserves more credit and respect at this point, based on her post content alone. I hope she still chuckles about being the Queen, she certainly has the chops to declare herself as such, if she chooses.
YMMV
Eric

Nobody has more respect for Lynne and what she's done for the dive community ... local and internet ... DIR and otherwise ... than I do. I consider myself fortunate to know her and call her my friend. And we'll be diving together day after tomorrow. So I'll ask her if she minds the designation. Frankly, a big part of what I find so off-putting about Dan's approach is that it's such a counterpoint to people like Lynne, who present themselves in such a positive and helpful fashion.

Makes me glad I live where I live ... our DIR community isn't nearly as judgmental of everyone else as some elsewhere appear to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Steve_C]

All the discussion about avoiding cattle boats, etc., misses a point, that was made by the OP, but ignored.

Some of us do not live in Florida or at a site where where we can easily dive as much as we want. We do not always get to pick the day we dive. I was in San Diego for a meeting. There was one day I could dive. It will be the only day I will be in San Diego for many months, maybe the rest of my life. I wanted to dive the kelp there. There was one boat going out that day that was convenient. So I went on it. Had a nice dive.

The point is that for some of us, we sometimes face the stituation that the only way to dive some times in places we would like to dive is to take a cattle boat or whatever is available. So we take it. We have fun. Just go the opposite direction as the crowd. If it is a place i do not want to instabuddy I will rent a DM and we will do our own thing.