Berating an "Instructor" on a dive boat. How should I have handled differently?

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The OP *did NOT* cut the line. It crossed his mind yes, and then passed right out again. This thread shouldn't be about berating the guy for something he didn't do. He asked about how he handled the encounter back on the boat. Why do some of you chest thumpers want to make it about that and about how *you* would have taken a different boat. Fine for you. Blah blah blah yada yada yada
Chilly, the guy did ASK us what we would do.....Do you see a pattern here? Bad decisions as to what boat to use, and then the bad decision to ask scubaboarders what they think ? :-)

And really, the heart of the matter in a good answer to the OP, is that NONE of us could do the RIGHT THING on a boat as he described it. Like in the movie War Games, the only way to win, is not to play ...at least on a boat where the mix of divers is this bad.
And there are so many great boats, so why allow bad planning to make things even worse?
 
The OP *did NOT* cut the line. It crossed his mind yes, and then passed right out again. This thread shouldn't be about berating the guy for something he didn't do. He asked about how he handled the encounter back on the boat. Why do some of you chest thumpers want to make it about that and about how *you* would have taken a different boat. Fine for you. Blah blah blah yada yada yada

The chest thumper is the guy contemplating cutting someone else's line because he thinks that he knows better then everyone else. Then coming here looking for some kind of validation for that idea. Had he found that validation next time he might have cut the line even though he had no idea how many people were at the other end or how deep inside the wreck they were. Dan put it better then I did when he said "the only way to win is not to play" but I will stick with "shut up".
 
If you've read this far -- what would you have done?

Since you admitted this occurred several months ago - if it was me I would have kept the story to myself... It reminds me of a thread that Kharon started - Should have known better. I am not sure that Kharon saw where that thread was going... whether he was right or wrong - it did not matter

For me - on the Internet - if I am not willing to admit my flaws or if I have thin skin on a particular issue - I try not to post. If I have a position that is not popular but is mine - I am willing defend my point but at some point you need to let the thread go and not react (I hope I am big enough to listen to different sides and agree, disagree and learn from it or leave the thread alone) - as stated above you are not going to get your point across - maybe it is the way you wrote it - I know when I first read it - I laughed. But I did not laugh at you thinking cutting the line was doing any good... So I did not post - I wanted to see how others thought about your story. Now I know - that action is not popular by any stretch.
When you put yourself out there on the net - expect the unexpected - good or bad - and be gracious as best you can even if you don't feel like your being treated fairly.
 
I don't think you have read through this thread enough to understand where this discussion has gone. Your comment does NOT relate well to the issue at hand....

Dan, I was reading and understanding the thread just fine. You're the one that took a discussion of a specific incident and turned it into a condemnation of larger scale dive boats. I was just pointing out that those types of boats can be utilized and enjoyed safely even though they provide a different type of experience than the boats you profess to prefer. Maybe that was not your intent, but when others read your post the same way and the mod called you on it, you invoke Scubaboard god (Pete). You're correct that many of us haven't met you. We can only base our impressions on some of the bluster you put forth in your posts. The only "pratter" I'm seeing is coming from you. IMO
 
Dan, I was reading and understanding the thread just fine. You're the one that took a discussion of a specific incident and turned it into a condemnation of larger scale dive boats. I was just pointing out that those types of boats can be utilized and enjoyed safely even though they provide a different type of experience than the boats you profess to prefer. Maybe that was not your intent, but when others read your post the same way and the mod called you on it, you invoke Scubaboard god (Pete). You're correct that many of us haven't met you. We can only base our impressions on some of the bluster you put forth in your posts. The only "pratter" I'm seeing is coming from you. IMO

There is no bluster coming from me. It is kind of shocking that my being used to boats that can run 20 to 30 divers does not give me the experience you require for me to have an opinion on this.
So if you would like to point out the finer points of how to have good dives on the dive boats that hold from 40 to 60 divers....and you feel you have dived enough on these to offer up some valuable advice, I would be happy to read your ideas in this.

And the mod called me on nothing. He was spouting in to the wind, saying nothing that had any relation to the thread or the posts.
 
To the OP: first, I don't know what I would've done, I'm only human, I make tons of mistakes, and I often agonize over the mistakes I made, things I said, or didn't say... so, I'm not here to criticize. I can say, however, that when the objective is to influence someone to do something differently, certain tactics seem work better than others, and I'd like to share with you what I think works. I very often fail to follow this advice, but when I do manage to follow it, I can very easily tell the difference.

Contrary to what's been suggested above, I think it's great that you are being self-conscious and asking for feedback, that's the only way to learn something.

The first thing about influencing people is that we easily get emotional, often without realizing it, and as we grow more emotional, feel threatened, or otherwise uncomfortable, we stop thinking clearly, we get defensive, stubborn, inflexible, hard to reason with. In any situation, in which you want to influence another person, even in a negotiation, in which you want to gain something, the first thing is to make sure that the person is not feeling threatened, and if you notice signs of discomfort, either in their body language, or in the way they speak, you would be well advised to back off a little, and tackle that problem first.

This might seem counter-intuitive, one would think that the best way to convince a person of something is to crush them with the weight of your irrefutable arguments, but that would only work well if we are interacting with a rational mind. In reality, we are emotional, more than we are rational, and it's the emotions that we need to confront. If we humiliate someone, even if they go silent, admit a defeat, and appear to be convinced, there's a good chance that they will feel intense resentment towards us, and they will spend the rest of the day trying to think of ways to discredit us, and everything that we represent. And even if they do not resent us at first, they will most likely come to resent us later, as they think about what happened, and how we made them feel. They might even deliberately go against our good advice. Come to think of it, this makes plenty of sense. After they have been humiliated, they would now be taking another insult, by admitting that they were wrong, and in way, justifying the way, in which they have been badly mis-treated. It is hard to disassociate rational argument from the feelings that accompanied that argument, so it is best if we make the point we want to make without creating any sort of negative feelings.

Of course, this is easier said than done, but it's also not all black and white...

Indeed, the best way to convince someone would be, to approach them as if you approached a good friend, with whom you want to maintain a great relationship. This is sometimes also called being "soft" on the people, and "firm" on the point you want to make. Unfortunately, very often, we all do the exact opposite: we are "firm" on the people (we are rude, aggressive, or impatient), and "soft" on the point (we do not communicate it clearly), and that tends to lead to very poor outcomes.

Others have already pointed out some of the things that could have hurt the instructor's feelings, and that were counterproductive: offensive language, criticizing in front of a student, talking down, showing attitude, etc.

There are a few more examples of this sort that I'd like point out:

1) Criticizing someone out loud such that they can overhear it, without addressing them directly. Why would we want to whisper behind someone's back, rather than delivering the criticism directly into a person's face? Whatever the answer, it generally implies something negative either about us, or about the person we are criticizing. Come to think of it, this is also creating an asymmetric situation, in which we can state our criticism openly out loud, while the other person is feeling discouraged from responding, because the moment they do, they will be putting themselves out there, and taking the risk of being publicly humiliated. This is not a fair game, and a lot of people, myself included, resent that, and if it's done on purpose, perceive it as hostile. The knee jerk reaction may be to get confrontational ("if you have something to say to me, have the courage to confront me, rather than mumbling behind my back"), and that's definitely not helping you as a way of making introductions.

2) Walking out on someone without a word, shrugging, ignoring them, etc., depending on how it's done, we are basically telling someone that they are not worth talking to. At this point, we are not even criticizing their behavior, we are criticizing and rejecting the person as a whole. I cannot imagine a situation, in which this would be constructive. Sometimes, we do that simply because we feel helpless or tired, but that does not make it an effective strategy for influencing people, and in walking out, we are effectively accepting that we have failed.

3) Confronting the person's dumb remarks only makes sense if what you heard is really what they were trying to say, but that's often not the case. We all often speak nonsense when we get emotional, since we cannot think clearly. Or at least, I can definitely relate. I sometimes get frustrated about what I just said while the words are still coming out of my mouth. We are not robots, we do not mean everything we say verbatim. More often than not, when we say something dumb, what we are really trying to say is "I am feeling frustrated, humiliated, or cornered.". It is important to recognize when that is really the case, and to respond to what's the real message. If you don't, and confront the person about something dumb they said, you're only making things worse, for several reasons. It's hard to admit we said something dumb, and we all feel the need to appear consistent, so people will have an incentive to defend what they've just said, and only bury themselves deeper. The whole conversation will get more uncomfortable, and more irrational. That certainly isn't helping.

The above illustrates a broader point: when arguing with someone, it's important to know at what level the argument needs to be taking place, whether it's about feelings, specific behavior, procedures, principles, etc., or else there's a good chance of talking past each other.

There's a mechanism called a "ladder of inference" that illustrates that, let me give you a somewhat extreme example. You walk past a person, you say "hi", they don't say "hi" back. You think to yourself: they didn't say hi because they think they're better than you. They probably think that because they're Japanese, and you're Swedish, or because... and then you begin to resent the person, because you feel insulted by what you think were the reasons for their behavior, where in reality, the reasons might be innocent. You see where this goes. Sadly, this is the way our brains are wired, and we naturally tend to jump to conclusions all the time. In the midst of a heated argument, or any time we are under stress, this tendency only gets worse.

As pointed out earlier, when trying to deliver critical feedback to someone, we should spend 1% of the time talking, and 99% listening. Listening shows that you respect the other person as a person, and helps them feel more positively about you. It also helps you understand what's in their mind, what were the true reasons for their actions, and to respond appropriately. There's a chance that you could use this opportunity to both learn something from each other, and even make friends in the process. You will feel better, and you will do a favor to the future students, who won't get entangled by a line laid in mid-water...
 
Kr2y5! Bravo!!!

---------- Post added November 9th, 2014 at 02:18 AM ----------

Rich Keller, NO you shut up. :p. ;)
 
Well, now I know what post will be featured in the photo next to the dictionary definition of "tl;dr"
 
Kr2y5! Bravo!!!

---------- Post added November 9th, 2014 at 02:18 AM ----------

Rich Keller, NO you shut up. :p. ;)

Kr2y5 has lots of good suggestions but the OPs conversation with the instructor had already gone wrong before he even knew he started a conversation. My solution would have avoided the problem from the start and I do follow my own advice, I shut up, do what I came to do then go home.
 
There is no bluster coming from me. It is kind of shocking that my being used to boats that can run 20 to 30 divers does not give me the experience you require for me to have an opinion on this.
So if you would like to point out the finer points of how to have good dives on the dive boats that hold from 40 to 60 divers....and you feel you have dived enough on these to offer up some valuable advice, I would be happy to read your ideas in this.

And the mod called me on nothing. He was spouting in to the wind, saying nothing that had any relation to the thread or the posts.

Couple points, Dan ... first off, I think as usual you're speaking from the perspective of the self-appointed spokesperson for the DIR community. We've been down this path pretty much every time someone posts a thread like this one, and as I've pointed out before, while your advice may have validity the delivery only perpetuates a stereotype of the DIR diver as arrogant and uncompromising. Believe it or not, that tends to get a negative reaction from a lot of people.

Second, unless Diver0001 is trying to moderate the thread ... which he is not ... he's just another poster. So your appeal to authority in this case is meaningless, and amounts to nothing more than mod-bashing ... which is something you tend to do with some regularity, and is completely unjustified.

The OP wasn't complaining about the number of people on the boat ... or the type of boat ... or the choice of dive site ... he was speaking specifically about the actions of one individual. And while he was justified in his concerns, his approach to expressing those concerns tended to be a bit counterproductive. Perhaps that's a lesson more than the OP should take away from this conversation.

So far it seems to me that kr2y5 is the only one who really gets it.

And yeah, all the diving gods just need to stay away from boats that cater to beginner or occasional divers whose skills may not be up to your standards ... for their sake as well as your own ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 

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