Beginners doing GUE fundamentals?

[flymolo]

It appears that no-one regrets taking fundamentals as beginners, and those who have done it later wish they'd done it before.

We fully expect not to pass fundamentals at our age, we've gathered that most people don't pass, but if we manage to get some very good skills and maybe achieve a provisional pass we'll be more than happy.

That’s a good attitude to have. No matter the result you will end up learning and improving a lot. Fundies also leaves you with a solid regimen of skills to work on during practice dives.

 

[Kendall Raine]

Agree with what others have said. Better earlier than later in your diving career. The skills you will learn are second to none. However, far more important than skill mastery is the mind set and critical thinking skills taught in a GUE course. Never accept what you're being taught without really trying to understand the logic. If you don't at first keep asking. While there is never only one way to do something, there is often a better way. Understanding the "why" is more important than simply memorizing the "what." Don't let peer pressure intimidate you into accepting something that doesn't seem right.

You will find plenty of divers (lots of examples here on SB) who believe GUE training is all about following one single way to configure/think about diving. Their conclusion is GUE engenders elitism, myopia, intellectual constipation and conformity (along with other unprintable afflictions). Most of these critics have not taken a GUE course. Some even conflate GUE with DIR from the George Irvine (and his sycophants) era and condemn with a broad emotional brush and no direct knowledge. GUE leadership is partly to blame for this, but that's another story.

Conversely, there are GUE students/advocates who will breathlessly debate the "correct" or "DIR" way to configure something without understanding/questioning the reasoning behind why GUE teaches what it does-and why that teaching has evolved. Frankly, they're no better (maybe worse) than their uninformed detractors. The fact GUE has evolved it's thinking on many concepts (from physiology to equipment) proves the inanity of the "only one way is correct" mindset. For that matter, many of the configuration/team concepts in GUE derived from the cave diving community long before there was a GUE. GUE is an attempt to codify best practices (in their view), not invent anything.

Last piece of advice: listen to the opinions of non-GUE trained divers. If you have developed good critical thinking skills you're quickly discriminate between those who have a sound basis in logic for their differences and those who's basis is simply that they've gotten away with it (for now). Hint; the latter outnumber the former. Your quest is to become a better diver, not a poster child of orthodox dogma.

Remember, only a Sith believes in absolutes.

Good luck.

 

[DCN]

Still considering whether to do this or not, leaning towards yay.

(We've managed to come a long way since our OW course, but we still have a lot to work on. Considering our somewhat rough start, it feels a bit intimidating to sign up for this, even though we know we'll learn a lot.)

 

[Doc Harry]

Has anyone done GUE fundamentals as a beginner? If so, what is your experience? Any regrets, if so, why?

I took GUE Fundies as a beginner, maybe 60 dives total. I had numerous conversations with my GUE instructor before the class, because I really had no idea if I was ready for such a class. My GUE instructor advised me to take the class regardless of my skill level. After the class began, he convinced me to go for a tec pass, and he put me in double tanks (which I had never used before).

The class turned out to be more of an audition than a teaching class. My GUE instructors (3 of them) spent the class ridiculing my lack of skills in doubles. Turns out I was taking GUE-F with other divers who were certified cave divers who were entering the GUE pipeline for GUE cave diving classes.

The GUE instructors took video during the dives, and they played video of screw ups over and over and over, laughing hysterically at me and making rude comments the entire time.

Despire all this, I got a provisional tech pass. When I returned to Florida a few months later to try again, my GUE instructors put me in impossible situations for a new diver, and again humiliated and ridiculed me the entire time. For instance, they took me out into stiff current in doubles, and had me try air sharing drills while trying to back kick into the stiff current. Mind you, I had just learned to back kick. When I drifted into the instructor, he punched me and forcefully shoved me back with excessive force. He didn't pass me, but had me come back again for another attempt to pass. I never went back.

Despite all this, I went back home with a much clearer idea of what constituted REAL dive skills. I got very serious about diving, bought a compressor, learned gas mixing, serviced all my tanks and regs, dove several days a week back home, mastered the skills, and went on to complete my cave diving certification. I have been diving all around the world and have a couple thousand dives under my belt.

So... I still recommend that you take GUE-F, but understand what you're getting into. Learn what you can.

The GUE folks will chime in here, calling me a liar, etc., which actually just validates what I say here is true. GUE folks have a superiority complex, and instead of trying to fix their problems they attack people who tell the truth about their bad GUE experiences.

 

[steinbil]

Still considering whether to do this or not, leaning towards yay.

(We've managed to come a long way since our OW course, but we still have a lot to work on. Considering our somewhat rough start, it feels a bit intimidating to sign up for this, even though we know we'll learn a lot.)

Don't worry! Trust your instructor. You're going in with the right attitude, so the only thing you're expected to do in the class is to be open to learning what they have to teach, and to try what they suggest. It's not about passing or failing. And you should never feel like you are failing - it's actually the instructor's responsibility to give you the tools and feedback you need to progress and to succeed.

PS.
If you want, we could meet up and dive one day, and you can ask me any questions you might have about the class. The skills are mostly the same skills you already did in your OW course, with a few minor changes - just with a focus on neutral buoyancy, trim and teamwork while executing them. And since all the skills you will be doing in the Fundamentals class are...well...fundamental skills, there's a lot of leeway for the instructor of teaching to the students ability - working on refining the skills and improving them incrementally in a way that challenges everyone regardless of their level. The class is not about doing completely new and overwhelming things. Just a holistic philosophy with protocols for doing the things you're already doing.

 

[steinbil]

...I still recommend that you take GUE-F, but understand what you're getting into. Learn what you can.

@DCN: Please don't listen to this guy on this subject. He apparently had a very bad experience with GUE decades ago, when things were decidedly very different in many ways, and chimes in on every discussion about GUE on these forums with the same wide sweeping generalizations about what GUE "is" based on his experience.

The fundamentals class IS NOTHING LIKE AN AUDITION, and is ALL ABOUT GREAT FEEDBACK FROM INSTRUCTORS GIVING YOU TOOLS TO SUCCEED AND LEARN. What he is describing is not real, at least not today. You have already met a local instructor here, I'm very confident that this instructor would never denigrate you, make you feel bad or anything even remotely similar.

 

[dray_gnv]

I took GUE Fundies as a beginner. I had numerous conversations with my GUE instructor before the class, because I really had no idea if I was ready for such a class. My GUE instructor advised me to take the class regardless of my skill level. After the class began, he convinced me to go for a tec pass, and he put me in double tanks (which I had never used before).

The class turned out to be more of an audition than a teaching class. My GUE instructors (3 of them) spent the class ridiculing my lack of skills in doubles. Turns out I was taking GUE-F with other divers who were certified cave divers who were entering the GUE pipeline for GUE cave diving classes.

The GUE instructors took video during the dives, and they played video of screw ups over and over and over, laughing hysterically at me and making rude comments the entire time.

Despire all this, I got a provisional tech pass. When I returned to Florida a few months later to try again, my GUE instructors put me in impossible situations for a new diver, and again humiliated and ridiculed me the entire time. For instance, they took me out into stiff current in doubles, and had me try air sharing drills while trying to back kick into the stiff current. Mind you, I had just learned to back kick. When I drifted into the instructor, he punched me and forcefully shoved me back with excessive force. He didn't pass me, but had me come back again for another attempt to pass. I never went back.

Despite all this, I went back home with a much clearer idea of what constituted REAL dive skills. I got very serious about diving, bought a compressor, learned gas mixing, serviced all my tanks and regs, dove several days a week back home, mastered the skills, and went on to complete my cave diving certification. I have been diving all around the world and have a couple thousand dives under my belt.

So... I still recommend that you take GUE-F, but understand what you're getting into. Learn what you can.

The GUE folks will chime in here, calling me a liar, etc., which actually just validates what I say here is true. GUE folks have a superiority complex, and instead of trying to fix their problems they attack people who tell the truth about their bad GUE experiences.

Hey Doc, that sounds like a terrible experience. I'm surprised you still recommend GUE Fundamentals, but perhaps it's because you can separate your experience with that instructor with the program itself. As others often say, selecting an instructor is important for any training.

My own experience has been altogether different from what you describe. As a relatively new and inexperienced diver (<40 experience dives) I took GUE Fundamentals last June. I had two instructors since one was gaining his own instructor certificate. Both were supportive, rigorous and helpful. They had different styles, but neither was abusive or demeaning of anything that happened -- and there were some awkward moments as we learned news skills and some in our class in new equipment. I stuck with a single tank and wetsuit, and came away with a Provisional pass -- which means "keep trying."

Six months and nearly 100 dives later, I successfully completed Technical Fundamentals, the new equivalent to Fundamentals with a Tech pass. A GUE instructor has been a mentor all along this path, that now includes big doubles and a drysuit.

I'm now somewhat familiar with all of the instructors who lead GUE Fundamentals classes in Florida. There none that I would steer away from, but I'm happy to provide some recommendation in a PM.

 

[chrisch]

Still considering whether to do this or not, leaning towards yay.

(We've managed to come a long way since our OW course, but we still have a lot to work on. Considering our somewhat rough start, it feels a bit intimidating to sign up for this, even though we know we'll learn a lot.)

The choice is yours and you do not have to "pass" or even complete the course. You should not feel intimidated - you are buying an experience that is designed to help you reach a goal - that of being a better diver. The instructor is there to deliver that goal for you. It is a demanding course and requires that you put in the effort. If you put in the effort it will reward you.

I have never met a GUE instructor that does not want to help students achieve their goal. That attitude makes the course anything but intimidating. If you take the course wanting to improve your skills you will improve.

There is much to debate about GUE and much to argue and disagree with for those who "enjoy" such disagreement. The system is deigned to create uniformity and this is not a universally agreed thing. However the basic, or "fundamental", dive skills are not subject to such controversy. No one ever thought having good bouyancy was bad idea.

If you have the time, the budget and the desire to improve you will do just fine.

 

[Doc Harry]

What he is describing is not real

Like I said.... Deny and attack, the GUE way of doing business.

GUE has never even acknowledged my complaints about the class and instructor, let alone apologize or offer me a free repeat with another instructor. I spent thousands of dollars in airfare, vacation time, hotels, rentals cars, etc., to attend those GUE-F classes. As I've said before, someone from GUE can send me $3,000 compensation and I will shut up.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

As I've said before, someone from GUE can send me $3,000 compensation and I will shut up.

Time to use the ignore button.