Before you take your open water course

[Redhawk]

Just to throw in my own experience (I'm newly qualified). My wife, 2 kids (11 & 13) & I did our OW in December, my wife is yet to complete her course as she has trouble with mask clearing. She is an excellent swimmer (does open water mile swims), she hikes & is in fairly good shape. The mask she had did not fit properly (despite the suction test) and continued to flood after she had cleared it, this continuous flooding/clearing action built up her anxiety levels to the point where she was unable to clear her mask on her open water dives! IMO properly fitted equipment is the most essential component for completing the OW course (assuming a reasonable level of fitness & comfort in water).

 

[boulderjohn]

Just to throw in my own experience (I'm newly qualified). My wife, 2 kids (11 & 13) & I did our OW in December, my wife is yet to complete her course as she has trouble with mask clearing. She is an excellent swimmer (does open water mile swims), she hikes & is in fairly good shape. The mask she had did not fit properly (despite the suction test) and continued to flood after she had cleared it, this continuous flooding/clearing action built up her anxiety levels to the point where she was unable to clear her mask on her open water dives! IMO properly fitted equipment is the most essential component for completing the OW course (assuming a reasonable level of fitness & comfort in water).

There is also a good chance that she is doing something to cause the mask to leak. I have a friend who was wealthy enough that he bought several masks because he could not find one that did not leak. Eventually he realized that while diving he was moving his facial muscles enough to continually break the seal and let in water. Once he learned to maintain a blank expression throughout his dives, every one of the masks he had purchased worked just fine.

I assume her instructor has already worked on that.

 

[Slonda828]

I wasn't going to reply to this anymore, but I wanted to address a few things without seeming angry and clarify a few points.

I stated that I have seen 4-5 people quit diving during the pool sessions, and I have. Not all of those people were at the shop I work at, or even with the same instructor. All of these people were very uncomfortable in the water. One couldn't breathe through a snorkel without hyperventilating.

I have a few points that I would like to make. First, I feel that being a good swimmer contributes highly to a level of comfort in the water that is fruitful in diving. There are a few publications that support my point of view, including The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, Basic Scuba by Fred Roberts, and the NAUI open water diving manual. I am not saying that a proficient swimmer is 100% going to be a good diver, but it helps. If it didn't help, there would not be any swim tests for any of the recreational scuba certifications. I understand that my web page had a tough swim test on it. The 500 meter swim test equates to roughly 1,640 feet, a little over a quarter of a mile. This is opinion based granted, but there are plenty of incidents on CDNN where people get in trouble, and could use the ability to swim in their favor:

CDNN :: Missing Scuba Divers Rescued after Five Hours Adrift

This one is where a group of divers spent five hours adrift at sea over 5 nautical miles away from shore before being located by helos.

CDNN :: Search Resumes for Missing Oahu Diver

Here's one where they look for a guy two miles offshore and didn't locate him.

The bottom line is, there is a reason to be able to swim. I'm not expecting people to agree with the distance of 500 meters for a swim test, but it certainly suggests more physical ability than being able to swim 200-300 yards. Being able to tread water for more than 10 minutes would also be beneficial in cases like the above mentioned. The water treading exercise on my page advocated a 30 minute minimum, as based upon all of the research I had done, all of the CDNN incidents where someone was lost at sea were definitely longer than 10 minutes. Obviously, one cannot expect someone to be able to tread water for hours in a scuba class, but 30 minutes is a reasonable expectation.

My second point, is that being comfortable with an artificial airway like a snorkel is useful to being comfortable in the water prior to being a scuba diver. There are also several manuals which emphasize this point of view, including The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, Basic Scuba, and others. I have also had to assist people who were uncomfortable in the water by helping them learn to swim or snorkel enough to be comfortable. I'm sure many of you have some stories that would support this point of view as well as oppose it.

It just bothered me that I took down a site that encouraged people to become adept at swimming and snorkeling before they become divers. I agree that many people possess the ability to pass an open water diver course on the first attempt. I was that way, and many of my friends did it the first time as well. However, what's wrong with putting up a few exercises on the internet and encouraging people to learn how to use a snorkel?

Many people on here also questioned why I would post such advice when I am not an instructor in diving. I never claimed to be an instructor, or attempted to seek remuneration for my site. It was just some friendly tips on the web.

Anyway, the site is down so it is irrelevant. I just didn't want anyone to think that I just gave up because people complained. There are plenty of people on this board whom agree with the point of view that you should have to swim to dive, and that watermanship is a good set of skills to have. While I took the site down, my point of view hasn't changed. If you have compelling arguments for why the average diver only needs to swim 200-300 yards and tread water for 10 minutes versus being more proficient, I welcome them. Furthermore, if you have other compelling arguments for why people should not snorkel or skin dive before an open water scuba course, I'd like to hear those as well.

 

[Thalassamania]

... I stated that I have seen 4-5 people quit diving during the pool sessions, and I have. Not all of those people were at the shop I work at, or even with the same instructor. All of these people were very uncomfortable in the water. One couldn't breathe through a snorkel without hyperventilating.

I've had this happen with a few students over the years, it is not a hard problem to solve (usually). They need a "distraction skill." The distraction skill that I've found works well is the same one that I use for mask clearing, face in the water alternating exhalation between nose and moth. After five repetitions of that exercise you move to doing the same thing (no mask) with a snorkel in the mouth, the wearing snorkel and mask, the mask and regulator ... works like a champ.

I have a few points that I would like to make. First, I feel that being a good swimmer contributes highly to a level of comfort in the water that is fruitful in diving. There are a few publications that support my point of view, including The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, Basic Scuba by Fred Roberts, and the NAUI open water diving manual. I am not saying that a proficient swimmer is 100% going to be a good diver, but it helps. If it didn't help, there would not be any swim tests for any of the recreational scuba certifications. I understand that my web page had a tough swim test on it. The 500 meter swim test equates to roughly 1,640 feet, a little over a quarter of a mile.

As an author of several different editions of New Science of Skin and Scuba and of the NAUI Open Water manual I support what you are saying. It's not that swimming, per se, is a critical skill for learning to dive, it is an idicator of comfort in the water. Are there other ways of determining comfort in the water, sure there are, but the intersection between the set of good swimmers and people who are comfortable in the water is damn near 100%.

This is opinion based granted, but there are plenty of incidents on CDNN where people get in trouble, and could use the ability to swim in their favor:

CDNN :: Missing Scuba Divers Rescued after Five Hours Adrift

This one is where a group of divers spent five hours adrift at sea over 5 nautical miles away from shore before being located by helos.

CDNN :: Search Resumes for Missing Oahu Diver

Here's one where they look for a guy two miles offshore and didn't locate him.

The bottom line is, there is a reason to be able to swim. I'm not expecting people to agree with the distance of 500 meters for a swim test, but it certainly suggests more physical ability than being able to swim 200-300 yards. Being able to tread water for more than 10 minutes would also be beneficial in cases like the above mentioned. The water treading exercise on my page advocated a 30 minute minimum, as based upon all of the research I had done, all of the CDNN incidents where someone was lost at sea were definitely longer than 10 minutes. Obviously, one cannot expect someone to be able to tread water for hours in a scuba class, but 30 minutes is a reasonable expectation.

CDNN is, shall we say, diving's version of yellow journalism and I'd be hesitant to cite it as a source.

My second point, is that being comfortable with an artificial airway like a snorkel is useful to being comfortable in the water prior to being a scuba diver. There are also several manuals which emphasize this point of view, including The New Science of Skin and Scuba Diving, Basic Scuba, and others. I have also had to assist people who were uncomfortable in the water by helping them learn to swim or snorkel enough to be comfortable. I'm sure many of you have some stories that would support this point of view as well as oppose it.

Again, I'd agree with you on general principles, but I really have not found that divers develop particularly useful snorkeling skills on their own. Now formal snorkel training ... that's a fish or a diferent color.

It just bothered me that I took down a site that encouraged people to become adept at swimming and snorkeling before they become divers. I agree that many people possess the ability to pass an open water diver course on the first attempt. I was that way, and many of my friends did it the first time as well. However, what's wrong with putting up a few exercises on the internet and encouraging people to learn how to use a snorkel?

Many people on here also questioned why I would post such advice when I am not an instructor in diving. I never claimed to be an instructor, or attempted to seek renumeration for my site. It was just some friendly tips on the web.

Anyway, the site is down so it is irrelevent. I just didn't want anyone to think that I just gave up because people complained. There are plenty of people on this board whom agree with the point of view that you should have to swim to dive, and that watermanship is a good set of skills to have. While I took the site down, my point of view hasn't changed. If you have compelling arguments for why the average diver only needs to swim 200-300 yards and tread water for 10 minutes versus being more proficient, I welcome them. Furthermore, if you have other compelling arguments for why people should not snorkel or skin dive before an open water scuba course, I'd like to hear those as well.

There are lots of people out there, who, either are a result of what they've been taught, concern over their own basic skills, or worry over having their rice bowl broken oppose any "entry barriers" to learing to dive. You've got to learn to roll with it and ask yourself, "why is this person expressing that view?"

 

[Colliam7]

I wasn't going to reply to this anymore, but I wanted to address a few things without seeming angry and clarify a few points. ... I stated that I have seen 4-5 people quit diving during the pool sessions, ... All of these people were very uncomfortable in the water. One couldn't breathe through a snorkel without hyperventilating. ... I feel that being a good swimmer contributes highly to a level of comfort in the water that is fruitful in diving. ... I am not saying that a proficient swimmer is 100% going to be a good diver, but it helps. ... Being able to tread water for more than 10 minutes would also be beneficial ... being comfortable with an artificial airway like a snorkel is useful to being comfortable in the water prior to being a scuba diver. .. However, what's wrong with putting up a few exercises on the internet and encouraging people to learn how to use a snorkel? ... I never claimed to be an instructor, or attempted to seek remuneration for my site. It was just some friendly tips on the web.

I am at a bit of a disadvantage, in that the link to the 'curriculum' was already down by the time I tried to go there. But, I find the direction and tone of the discussion to be 'interesting'. What I read in the OP's first post was that he has put together a voluntary, preparatory course or program, that might help people become more comfortable in the water, and consequently help them pass virtually any OW course more easily. He said he was doing it to help people who might not be all that comfortable, or experienced, in the water. Not knowing what the actual content was, but reading some of the threads, I get the impression that it was a physically vigorous course. So, the kind of feedback he might be given (and which he asked for) could include: 1. Good idea, probably more than most people need to pass an OW course; or, 2. Not sure it is necessary, but if someone wanted to follow it, it wouldn't hurt; or, 3. Reasonable start but didn't go quite far enough; or, 4. I doubt it will make much difference, as the challenges that OW students usually have are X, Y and Z. All of that, and other similar feedback, would be reasonable. But, many of the responses instead seemed to flow along the lines of, 1. 'Who the heck are you to suggest such a thing, you are not an instructor?; 2. How dare you represent yourself as an expert; 3. This is heresy; 4. You are inappropriately and maliciously attacking certification agencies, shame on you!, etc. Now, again, maybe there was something in the website (which I haven't seen) that was particularly offensive - nude pictures of PADI staff members, or compromising photos of NAUI staffers with animals, or obscene statements about the heritage of SSI leadership. If so, then the reactions might be a little more understandable. And, some of the OP's subsequent responses may have been a little inarticulate. But, I am intrigued by the vehemence of the responses. What piqued my interest even more was watching last night a recording of several episodes of a Military Channel show, which my dive buddy taped for me, about a BUD/S class going through dive training. As I understood the situation on the show, a group of young men who had already been through the initial phase of SEAL training, AND had already made it through Hell Week, were being followed through the second part of their SEAL training, the dive phase. And, some of them were washing out because THEY WERE NOT COMFORTABLE IN THE WATER. Shazaam! Imagine that. So, I have to wonder, how does it hurt for someone, irrespective of how experienced they might be as a diver, to suggest one, voluntary approach that would-be divers might elect to use to prepare for OW class? I sure would love to see what was on the website.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

So would I. I've been following this thread and hoping you'd put the site back up. Please do it. Who cares if you torque some people off? they don't have to look at it.

 

[Thalassamania]

That's my vote also. Please ...

 

[seaducer]

Me three. I didn't see the site to begin with, but reading through the posts it looks like you were simply advocating fitness and comfort. Unless you are saying you can't dive unless XXX I have no idea how that is offensive?

 

[NudeDiver]

I can't believe you guys are ragging on the OP for posting his opinion on a web page, no matter WHAT it said. Good lord.

An opinion doesn't need to be supported by any facts, figures, or any references whatsoever. It's just what some guy thinks about whatever. Evaluate it for yourself. Like it or lump it. Hell, even express your own opinion and complain about it. But - crickey - it's nothing to get so worked up about esp. when the guy is at least TRYING to be helpful.

Hell, see if you can "out helpful" him and put your own own website complaining about his an explaining why he is so wrong. Then invite us all to come critique your work.

Sheesh.

 

[Slonda828]

Wow, I'm really glad that some people are so supportive. I erased the site because a bunch of instructors were pretty much telling me that I was a hack. Until you guys commented I was beginning to think about not coming back here at all. If some of you more experienced guys want to provide me with some input, I'd be happy to recreate it. I still have the physical standards written down in my notes, and the rest was pretty much exercises from New Science and Basic Scuba but modernized. Maybe we can solidify something together, I could do the leg work for us when I'm not swamped with Joyce or Woolf. Maybe some of Thal's formalized snorkel training would be in order as well. I'm not trying to to be too big for my proverbial dive britches.