Before you take your open water course

[Slonda828]

Let's go back to what you said was the purpose of the class in the opening post, that this was to prepare students for what they would encounter in their OW class. I said that what you said they should be doing is not what the dive community as a whole has accepted. You can tell that by looking at the OW standards for the various agencies.

Now, in your responses here you are saying something very different about the purpose of the course. You need to make it very clear that what you are saying is very different from what the actually experience when they take the class itself, and that it reflects your idea only.




Ah, I see we are operating on different definitions of constructive criticism. I suggest you clarify this by giving potential critics a form to use when providing criticism of the kind you prefer.

Here is one you can use if you like:

"I found everything you have done here to be simply wonderful. The only change I would suggest is to add the following:________________"

I am obviously not communicating effectively to you, and for that I am sorry. I posted a disclaimer on the front page after the previous feedback that you gave. This page has been sitting idle for over a month since I finished grad school. It was not my intent to offend any agency or to incite some sort of backlash from a bunch of randoms on the internet. I really just wanted to post this so that newer divers could have something to use if they wanted to practice stuff before they would have to exhibit it in their classes, and also because it's good exercise.

I really should have known better than to attempt to do this, because I had that sinking feeling that nothing good was going to come out of this, and this has taken the usual turn of events that most threads that are any kind of different do on this board. I did not want to give the impression that I was not accepting feedback, but saying "I don't agree with you" doesn't really give me a whole lot to go on in the way of making positive changes. I was really looking for the kind of feedback that would lead to additional content being added. When you mentioned that (to you) my page gave the implication of being compulsory or indicative of what someone would experience in an open water class, I changed it. If you would care to give me more feedback, that would be great.

If this is going to continue its descent into uselessness (I understand I am as guilty as anyone), then I'm just going to make the page private again and save it for when I have to cite an example of an adult educational program.

It's times like this that I know how Thalassamania feels.

 

[Slonda828]

PADI does not require this, at either the DM or instructor level.

I stand corrected. The swim test I took was for the NAUI program.

 

[Slonda828]

the one thing I would like to know is what makes you such an expert in the subject? are you an instructor?doubtful since your info says you have less than 50 dives... that also puts you out of being a divemaster, so what exactly makes you think you're qualified to be telling other people what they should or should not do when it comes to diving instruction? also where exactly does it say in the padi standards that you are required to do a 25 m underwater swim? learn the standards prior to quoting them..

Try this. Instead of looking at how many logged dives I have, look at my profile. Read it, and understand that while I have not been diving for over ten years like you, I have been diving for about 7. I already stated that I was incorrect on the PADI standards, the standards for the program I am in are NAUI. Now, having said that, instead of making this worse and sounding ignorant, how about you help me make it better if you do not like the way it is?

 

[Diver0001]

How about providing USEFUL feedback.

I think he pointed out something valuable.

It's your blog but you're putting up a lot of information that is pure opinion but you're presenting it like facts. I have a personal allergy for that kind of thing. I think it's sloppy. (that, of course, is my opinion )

For example you say about swimming

Key points:

-Be able to swim 500 meters continuously, in a swim-suit and swimmers goggles.

-Know how to breast stroke, side stroke, and elementary back stroke.

and as far as I know the FACT is that none of the beginning level scuba classes require you to do all this.

I'm missing two big general things:

1) A page outlining your qualifications as a diver, as a diver trainer and as an expert in development scuba courses. Given that you would appear to want to present yourself as an expert on diver training I think you owe it to your readers to outline your qualifications.

2) I would like to see on every page under every section a comparison table showing your recommendations as compared to the requirements of a typical dive course. This way your readers will know if what you are telling them to do is in line with what they will be required to do in a diving class.

I didn't read all the pages in detail but some of the perspectives you have on the subject are worth while reading if you tighten it up a bit and be clear to seperate fact and opinion.

As a last point, some of the pages are walls of text. Hardly anybody will take the time to read that. If you want them to read it then using more headings and shorter, more to the point paragraphs is needed.

I hope you can use some of this advice.

R..

 

[Web Monkey]

Your site advocates a large number of practices that will work out better if done after signing up for a class or not at all.

Mask, snorkel and fins, for example all look the same if you don't know what you're looking at or what to look for. We stock probably 30 different masks and out of the whole bunch, it isn't uncommon to find that only one or two fit any particular person. Your site simply describes a few general types and tells the student to get a mask, which stands an excellent chance of leaving them with a non-returnable mask they don't like.

Same for fins. There are dozens of different types of fins and they're best tested in the water, not in a catalog or on a shelf.

Also, I take great exception the wide brush you use here:

The average open water SCUBA class is typically two classroom sessions, two days of pool work, then off to the open water under supervision for your certification (commonly called 'checkout') dives.

We spend more time than that just getting equipment selected and adjusted and doing a snorkeling intro. The actual class is 7-8 weeks and can be extended indefinitely if the student needs more time.

Two days after you have paid $300 for a diving course is not the time to figure out that you cannot clear your own ears or that you have an irrational fear of being submerged in water.

Again, this is something to leave for class. There are a bunch of ear clearing methods as well as consultation with a doc. Why discourage someone just because they can't do it alone?

It's your page and you can do what you want with it, but at this point it certainly doesn't rate a sticky.

If you really want to help new divers, instead of telling them how to prepare for the "2-day Wonder Class", tell them to shop around for a class that goes at their pace and allows additional time as needed.

Terry

 

[Slonda828]

I think he pointed out something valuable.

It's your blog but you're putting up a lot of information that is pure opinion but you're presenting it like facts. I have a personal allergy for that kind of thing. I think it's sloppy. (that, of course, is my opinion )

For example you say about swimming


and as far as I know the FACT is that none of the beginning level scuba classes require you to do all this.

Ro, I've read some of your posts before, and you always come across as a well spoken and earnest person (to me at least). Thanks for the feedback. You are correct on the above, it is just my opinion. It is not required by any beginning scuba class. For this reason (and others) I have added the disclaimer at the beginning of the page.

I'm missing two big general things:

1) A page outlining your qualifications as a diver, as a diver trainer and as an expert in development scuba courses. Given that you would appear to want to present yourself as an expert on diver training I think you owe it to your readers to outline your qualifications.

If you like, I can add to the disclaimer that I am just a diver. I'm not trying to pass myself off as an expert, and that was not my intention. If you feel like I am trying to do that, then I can correct this on the page. I would prefer to not post my resume on the internet, I'm sure you can understand that.

2) I would like to see on every page under every section a comparison table showing your recommendations as compared to the requirements of a typical dive course. This way your readers will know if what you are telling them to do is in line with what they will be required to do in a diving class.

I didn't read all the pages in detail but some of the perspectives you have on the subject are worth while reading if you tighten it up a bit and be clear to seperate fact and opinion.

I had to not mention any agencies by name in my coursework, but I suppose I could create a table that lists the watermanship skills requirements and such from the agencies without mentioning them by name. Does this sound like a reasonable manifestation of your intent?

As a last point, some of the pages are walls of text. Hardly anybody will take the time to read that. If you want them to read it then using more headings and shorter, more to the point paragraphs is needed.

I hope you can use some of this advice.

R..

This is good feedback as well, thanks.

 

[tstormdiver]

You are an instructor, I'm only a divemaster in training. I KNOW you have seen people quit during the confined water sessions. I've seen at least 4 or 5 people just quit, and get out of the pool and never come back. That's all this is trying to prevent.

The only ones I have seen quit from a course are those who really didn't want to do it in the first place (pressured by a SO or family member). Our shop takes great pride in taking extra time with those who want to learn this sport & helping them to succeed. In fact we had one lady who wanted to learn so badly & yet was afraid to even put her face in the water in the first class. She went through about 4-5 full class sessions & swim lessons before she was comfortable enough to go on to the OW check- out dives. She now dives some of the most challenging places, can dive circles around most others, is a superb underwater photographer & is in general a diving fiend.

I have to just go ahead and ask, if you thought you could remotely perform half of these activities, would you be against them? Ask yourself that honestly.

You assume. You don't know me or my abilities. No, I don't think I can, I KNOW I can, I've had to do some of it. Sure,... I'm not perfect (even as an instructor) & probably not in the best shape I could be in. Fortunately,... my IT/IC is also a very tough technical instructor & he demands much more than the minimum standards from the instructors he trains. When I said It took all I could do to a 25m swim on a single breath, that was in full technical gear (double cylinders, stages, drysuit w/ undies & canister light) That's a lot of drag to push through the water, if you think about it. He trains not for minimums, but for survival in a potentially hostile underwater environment. If you can do better than I can, then good for you. I'm not in a pi**ing match with you. Not everyone is an Olympic swimmer, nor do they want to be. I realize & read that you stated that this is more than what most agencies have in their standards.You're also right, it doesn't apply to everyone. 99% of the beginner divers just want to make the occasional trip to the tropics to see the reefs. If someone wants to follow your prescribed regimen then, yes, they will probably do well. The markets have steered the agencies to the standards they now carry for the type of diver mentioned above, you know this from your DM studies. Being in superior shape & condition is always a good thing & can make diving much easier. Going beyond the minimum standards, as long as they are viable for the type of diving being undertaken, can only make a better diver. All's I was saying in my original posts was that this is overkill for the normal person who wants to learn to dive for pleasure.

I welcome feedback on this, but it needs to be constructive and not limited to the usual scubaboard jibberish of nonsensical garbage.

Obviously you are not looking for constructive feed back, but more of a pat on the back. Instead of even trying to look at anyone else's point of view, you decide to instantly go into attack mode when someone says they disagree (if you want other's feed back, you have to take the good, the bad & even sometimes what you may not want to hear) That IS constructive criticism. Yes, what you have written is your opinion (& you're more than welcome to express it) & I don't necessarily disagree with all you wrote, just parts. If you truly don't want other's opinions, Then you should have said that in the opening post.

 

[Beyond_Diving]

Try this. Instead of looking at how many logged dives I have, look at my profile. Read it, and understand that while I have not been diving for over ten years like you, I have been diving for about 7. I already stated that I was incorrect on the PADI standards, the standards for the program I am in are NAUI. Now, having said that, instead of making this worse and sounding ignorant, how about you help me make it better if you do not like the way it is?

because as you have stated previously, it is YOUR website with YOUR opinions and nothing anyone else says matters unless it has to do with your fin selection, or with how long your paragraphs are

This is funny, my opinions on my web page. I didn't know I had to consult the diving community at large to design my own web page. Maybe next time you write a blog you should call my cell phone and make sure you put my opinions in your blog too.

so how would I possibly be able to help make it better when whatever everybody has said gets shut down by you? and who cares how long you, I or anybody else has been diving for? fact is that you are not qualified to instruct others.

 

[Diver0001]

If you like, I can add to the disclaimer that I am just a diver. I'm not trying to pass myself off as an expert, and that was not my intention. If you feel like I am trying to do that, then I can correct this on the page. I would prefer to not post my resume on the internet, I'm sure you can understand that.

Yeah, of course. A disclaimer would suffice. People who know you here will read this with the obligatory "grain of salt" but I was thinking more about the random surfer who gets lead to that page by Google. You have some strong opinions and it comes across as intelligent but you don't want to mislead people either....

I had to not mention any agencies by name in my coursework, but I suppose I could create a table that lists the watermanship skills requirements and such from the agencies without mentioning them by name. Does this sound like a reasonable manifestation of your intent?

You could work with bandwidths too. If PADI requires 200 metres of swimming for the OW cours and NAUI requires 250 then you could say in your comparison that agency standards vary between 200-250 metres.

R..

 

[Slonda828]

Obviously you are not looking for constructive feed back, but more of a pat on the back. Instead of even trying to look at anyone else's point of view, you decide to instantly go into attack mode when someone says they disagree (if you want other's feed back, you have to take the good, the bad & even sometimes what you may not want to hear) That IS constructive criticism. Yes, what you have written is your opinion (& you're more than welcome to express it) & I don't necessarily disagree with all you wrote, just parts. If you truly don't want other's opinions, Then you should have said that in the opening post.

See here's the thing. This site I had was already sitting around collecting dust. The feedback that I had from my class was excellent, and a few people even went and got certified. I don't need a pat on the back, I just figured since people have expressed that they enjoyed it when we did it, that maybe I would share it, and it could be helpful to a few people. I didn't want people to think I was an expert, or I had delusions of grandeur, or whatever. Scubaboard gets a lot of traffic, I figured maybe it would help somebody out. Obviously I was incorrect. That's fine, I've been wrong before about worse things. It's not a big deal, it was either share the site or shelf it. Even if it does prove worthwhile to people, I don't really have the time in my current postgrad work to keep this kind of presence on here to respond to the amount of negative feedback it is going to generate, so in terms of cost/benefit analysis, it's a non-entity. Lesson learned.