BC Remove and Replace Skill

[Belzelbub]

For the Zeagle Ranger, I would add trim pockets to the two cylinder straps. That could offload a fair bit. it might work to put some weight inside the pockets that doesn't fall out when the rip cord is pulled.

It comes with two pockets on the lower cam bands. They are actually quite large and could serve to redistrute a good amount of weight.

With lungs intact

True. That should definitely be the goal.

I wouldn't expect people with thick gloves, possibly dry gloves to have to dexterity to pull out one weight pocket.

That may be true. Certainly requires more dexterity than the pull out pockets. The zippers are quite large, so I don’t think it’s impossible.

An arbitrary weight distribution is liable to result in unfavorable trim. I don't think that BC has moveable trim pockets, so they need what they need.

I’ve never needed to move mine. They are looped through the lower cam band, but are secured in place. It would be simple to add another set to the upper cam band or elsewhere if that’s what’s needed. My point was that the diver doesn’t need to, and most likely shouldn’t, carry all their ballast in the Ripcord pockets.

 

[sea_ledford]

Would you elaborate this please? Describe a specific scenario.

There's already a skill for that

Are you asking about a specific non-emergency example?
-A diver I'm guiding insists he needs 16 lbs. I'm 99% sure he only needs 12. We agree to split the difference and go with 14. At the end of the dive I have him pull out an additional 2 lbs to see if he can maintain depth with 12 lbs.
-The opposite of that where a diver is a couple lbs light at the end of the dive, so I give them some of mine.
-You need to move some weight from the main pocket to a trim pocket
-The diver didn't correctly attache their pocket, or over loaded it, and it is now hanging out like a saddle bag and needs to be fixed.

You can't tell me you have never had to adjust a students weight underwater.


Of course there is a skill for emergencies, isn't that what we are talking about? It's the same skill as non-emergencies except you don't have to put the weight back!

 

[boulderjohn]

It comes with two pockets on the lower cam bands. They are actually quite large and could serve to redistrute a good amount of weight.

I’ve never needed to move mine. They are looped through the lower cam band, but are secured in place. It would be simple to add another set to the upper cam band or elsewhere if that’s what’s needed. My point was that the diver doesn’t need to, and most likely shouldn’t, carry all their ballast in the Ripcord pockets.

My first BCD, many years ago, was an early model Ranger, with no trim pockets. I dove it for years with all the weight in the ripcord pockets. Then I was on a liveaboard trip with a boat that only had 2-kilo weights. I wanted 3 of them, but did not want to be off balance. A DM took a weight belt and strapped one to the top of the tank. That was my introduction to trim weighting, and it was a revelation. I was so much happier diving that way I resolved to ditch the Ranger and get a BCD that allowed me to put some weight up high on the BCD. I bought one (ScubaPro Nighthawk) that had trim pockets at shoulder level, and I loved it.

Years later I started working for a shop that sold Zeagles, and I had a student who bought a new Ranger with the trim pockets on the lower cam band. Yes, he was able to distribute some weight out of the ripcord pockets, but that just moved them to the back of the BCD, at about the same level as the ripcord pockets. My best guess is that it was designed to overcome the dreaded fear of being tipped forward at the surface. It did absolutely nothing for the diver's trim. I attached weights to the upper cam band using bungee cords and suggested he buy separate weight pockets for trim.

I have seen many model BCDs with what they call trim pockets at the same level on the diver's torso as the front pockets, and for the life of me I cannot imagine what the companies that do that are thinking.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Are you asking about a specific non-emergency example?
-A diver I'm guiding insists he needs 16 lbs. I'm 99% sure he only needs 12. We agree to split the difference and go with 14. At the end of the dive I have him pull out an additional 2 lbs to see if he can maintain depth with 12 lbs.
-The opposite of that where a diver is a couple lbs light at the end of the dive, so I give them some of mine.
-You need to move some weight from the main pocket to a trim pocket
-The diver didn't correctly attache their pocket, or over loaded it, and it is now hanging out like a saddle bag and needs to be fixed.

You can't tell me you have never had to adjust a students weight underwater.

I establish the amount of weight at the beginning fairly closely and then I make adjustments for trim. At the end of OW1, I remove a small amount of weight from trim pockets.

I don't expect a diver to move weights to/from trim pockets. I teach my students to make adjustments at safety stops. Dump all gas from the BCD/wing. Drain their cylinder down to 500 psi / 50 bar (yes, I know they are not hte same).

Now let's take a step back and look at the context of open water. Here's PADI's happy face slate for all the skills for students to evaluate their comfort level (a smart way of ensuring students perform all skills, if used).

Now I would argue that these skills are mandatory skills when it comes to open water. The we are discussing, weight removal and replacement is an absolute must for those who use weightbelts, as people may accidentally release, or their wetsuit compresses enough at depth that they need to adjust.

However, I don't see the same necessity for weight pockets. In that configuration, I don't believe it belongs on this list. The rest of the skills are required for control and dealing with emergencies, from OOG to loss of a mask, to loose cylinder bands, etc..

It is a nice to have to adjust weights under water, but I see this more as the dive guide/instructor stepping in. I've done this for others on vacation when I see a grossly overweighted diver, but I have to have a rapport with them before I even consider it. And I'd only do so at a safety stop. For my students, moving weight around happens at the beginning of dives to establish comfortable trim.

So while you did present a scenario, it isn't a critical scenario for integrated weights like it is for weight belts and all the other required skills

 

[tursiops]

Now I would argue that these skills are mandatory skills when it comes to open water.

Not sure what you mean by "mandatory." Do you mean "good to know" or maybe "critical in open water" or even "required by standards" or what?
I ask because all these confined water skills are NOT required in OW by standards, but are surely good to know. And some are certainly more useful/likely/important/critical than others, for example emergency weight drop (done at the surface so you can stay at the surface) is possibly life-saving, but cramp release may never get used. Clearing a mask is essential, but probably not life threatening if it doesn't go well, whereas a CESA may save a life. So what do you mean by "mandatory?" Your example of Adjusting a weight belt vs weight pockets is an example of what? Weight pockets can slip out and be reinserted, just like a weight belt can come loose and be put back on. Since the former are now more popular than the latter, it would seem to be MORE important -- not less -- to train what do do with weight pockets, if only to get familiar with their operation while diving

 

[Belzelbub]

Now I would argue that these skills are mandatory skills when it comes to open water. The we are discussing, weight removal and replacement is an absolute must for those who use weightbelts, as people may accidentally release, or their wetsuit compresses enough at depth that they need to adjust.

However, I don't see the same necessity for weight pockets. In that configuration, I don't believe it belongs on this list. The rest of the skills are required for control and dealing with emergencies, from OOG to loss of a mask, to loose cylinder bands, etc..

This would depend on the type of weight pockets. Plenty of examples can be found in this forum of weight pockets releasing unintended. In some cases, that’s because they weren’t properly inserted. In other cases, it may be due to a poor design. Some have been recalled due to enough accidental releases to warrant a redesign.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This would depend on the type of weight pockets. Plenty of examples can be found in this forum of weight pockets releasing unintended. In some cases, that’s because they weren’t properly inserted. In other cases, it may be due to a poor design. Some have been recalled due to enough accidental releases to warrant a redesign.

Is it reasonable to argue that the pre-dive safety check should be emphasized to ensure students retain that? I can't speak how other instructors teach, but I do discuss the different clips for integrated weights even though I don't put my students in jacket style BCDs. The reality is that unless they bring their own gear, what is available for rental will most often be jacket style BCDs with integrated. I stress to ensure that the weights are secure, as there are bad designs. They should yank on them to see if they'd come loose. Doing so I would hope (I cannot guarantee) that they wouldn't pop out during the course of a dive.

Maybe the trouble I'm having here is that I don't think/teach to the lowest common denominator. But I try to apply logic to what we teach. I will have this discussion with my own agencies where I retain membership.

 

[Belzelbub]

Is it reasonable to argue that the pre-dive safety check should be emphasized to ensure students retain that? I can't speak how other instructors teach, but I do discuss the different clips for integrated weights even though I don't put my students in jacket style BCDs. The reality is that unless they bring their own gear, what is available for rental will most often be jacket style BCDs with integrated. I stress to ensure that the weights are secure, as there are bad designs. They should yank on them to see if they'd come loose. Doing so I would hope (I cannot guarantee) that they wouldn't pop out during the course of a dive.

I think that is reasonable, especially with divers that primarily rent. The gear they use in the class is likely to be different than what they use in the future. Most use similar designs. But you are right. Ultimately, it is up to the diver to be familiar with the gear they (and their buddy) use on the dive.

This line of thought did come Into play when my daughters were getting certified. I wanted them to do all their certification dives in their own gear. They were small, so fit was one issue, familiarity was another. Their gear is also similar to mine, since I’d be their sole dive buddy for a while. So, if they are familiar with their gear, they are also familiar with mine.

 

[sea_ledford]

I'm really struggling to understand your hesitation with this. I know you are a competent instructor, I've used your guide to teaching neutrally buoyant. It's awesome, thanks for writing it up!

But weight pockets fall out. There is no denying that. They can be checked on the surface during a buddy check, and they still can fall out. It certainly happens way more often than divers running out of gas, or getting their mask knocked off. Trying to figure out how to replace them underwater for the first time while in cold water, in a thick suit and wearing gloves is not ideal. It's not hard to do, but it takes some technique. It takes about 5 minutes of pool time, and even less in open water.

It's a known problem with an easy fix. Why not train for it even if the letter of the standards don't require it by a very specific reading?

 

[scubadada]

I establish the amount of weight at the beginning fairly closely and then I make adjustments for trim. At the end of OW1, I remove a small amount of weight from trim pockets.

I don't expect a diver to move weights to/from trim pockets. I teach my students to make adjustments at safety stops. Dump all gas from the BCD/wing. Drain their cylinder down to 500 psi / 50 bar (yes, I know they are not hte same).

Now let's take a step back and look at the context of open water. Here's PADI's happy face slate for all the skills for students to evaluate their comfort level (a smart way of ensuring students perform all skills, if used).
View attachment 721453

Now I would argue that these skills are mandatory skills when it comes to open water. The we are discussing, weight removal and replacement is an absolute must for those who use weightbelts, as people may accidentally release, or their wetsuit compresses enough at depth that they need to adjust.

However, I don't see the same necessity for weight pockets. In that configuration, I don't believe it belongs on this list. The rest of the skills are required for control and dealing with emergencies, from OOG to loss of a mask, to loose cylinder bands, etc..

It is a nice to have to adjust weights under water, but I see this more as the dive guide/instructor stepping in. I've done this for others on vacation when I see a grossly overweighted diver, but I have to have a rapport with them before I even consider it. And I'd only do so at a safety stop. For my students, moving weight around happens at the beginning of dives to establish comfortable trim.

So while you did present a scenario, it isn't a critical scenario for integrated weights like it is for weight belts and all the other required skills

I would be very surprised if the average diver could perform all the skills on this list