Attitudes Toward DIR Divers

[KenE]

This is not team diving

Without quoting GUE, please define what "Team Diving" is and is not. Reliance on another is not obvious or apparent on the surface, until something bad happens, then it is very apparent! Although you might not like the fact, it is fact that reliance on another occurs more often in Diving than any other hobby to the detriment of the other!

 

[flymolo]

Without quoting GUE, please define what "Team Diving" is and is not. Reliance on another is not obvious or apparent on the surface, until something bad happens, then it is very apparent! Although you might not like the fact, it is fact that reliance on another occurs more often in Diving than any other hobby to the detriment of the other!

Team diving doesn't mean relying on your teammates for safety. It's about working together to streamline the dive and having more resources available to solve a problem when it occurs. If you don't have the capacity to help yourself in an emergency you likely don't have the capacity to help someone else.

Also, not sure if this has come up in this iteration of the thread yet, but team bailout is not used in team diving either.

 

[Wallowa]

Unsustainable due to helium price and availability. The days of the National Helium Reserve being sold off at below market prices are long gone and will never return. The precise definition of a "Tech Dive" is unimportant in this context and I don't want another argument about semantics. Take it however you like.

No. This is a decision for the integrated team, not the individual. If you don't accept that fundamental point then further discussions about the fine points of gas selection or gear configuration or dive planning or whatever else are a waste of time.

No. The point of DIR is to take the risk out of diving while still keeping it a fun and productive activity. The riskiest part of our tech dives is driving to the dive site.

Relax, none of us are lobbying for more nanny state laws to restrict diving. But if divers keep doing stupid things and getting themselves killed in easily preventable incidents then politicians are likely to take notice and impose more laws on us or prohibit diving at certain sites. As a community we should try to avoid that. Our choices have consequences beyond the individual.

Ah, geez Nick.

My question was if you thought all open-circuit diving including air dives did not have a future in the diving community or just as defined in Tech. I understand the finite He availability and cost issues. Definitions should be succinct and concise and not a matter of semantics.

Integrated dive teams need definition. Not a 'waste of time' and the 'fundamental points' of what constitutes such a team and how exactly how they are integrated is crucial. Joint efforts towards an objective do involve assignments of responsibilities and understanding of the parameters, limitations and expectations. Having said that on any project or dive the individual will at some point deviate from the plan; dives never proceed in lock step according to group think. Once submerged the unanticipated will occur. It always comes back to the individual diver's independent decisions on a dive that will keep them safe.

DIR/GUR.....whatever/whoever... will not keep those in governmental agencies from "keeping us safe" with more and more restrictive mandates and statues on how we dive, where we dive and when we dive. It is not you Rick or the witless diver that dies needlessly that will restrict our freedom of choice; it is the nature of power to impose agendas on others that will choke down diving options. Few recognize that a diving "accident" is most often due to "negligence" and you can't legislate or mandate that out of existence.

The importance of the individual in diving should not be discounted or denigrated. Yes, our actions reflect on the diving community and when a new wave of protocols or limitations are imposed by the diving community it is the individual that will be ultimately feel the weight of these restrictions which in turn agencies will expand, whether they are applicable to them or not.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

That's crazy. How does that relate to the conversation on team diving?

Because maybe a “team” can get blown apart during such an event and suddenly they are no longer a team, they are loose components scattered around trying to figure out what the hell just happened! It becomes every man (or woman) for himself.
In a cave, probably not going to happen, on a deep wreck probably also not likely to happen unless it’s in an area where there might be an unexpected earthquake. On the north coast of CA, yes it does happen. I know because that’s where I dive.
There was a rogue wave once that hit and the epicenter was Goat Rock beach. I had two friends that were diving that day off their boat up around Fort Ross. They had just gotten out of the water when suddenly a massive wave came through that was three times as tall as any other swell that day and almost threw both of them off the boat! Later they found out that 4 teenagers were walking on Goat Rock beach high and dry when that wave hit the shore line. All four were swept into the ocean and only two survived.
I used to freedive quite a bit for abalone and have seen plenty of freaky condition changes within hours. We left Albion Harbor once and the conditions were great. In a matter of two hours the condition worsened so bad that we almost didn’t make it back into Albion cove without getting swamped from behind by white water. Absolutely no forecasted warning it was going to happen.
All the team diving in the world with proper trim staying flat proper frog anti silting kicks back kicks heli turns and the rest isn’t going to do you a damn bit of good in this area. I tried like hell back in the old days to get a DIR instructor dude guy up here to run a class and every time they refused.
At that time they were all from LA.
Now I know why.

 

[steinbil]

Without quoting GUE, please define what "Team Diving" is and is not. Reliance on another is not obvious or apparent on the surface, until something bad happens, then it is very apparent! Although you might not like the fact, it is fact that reliance on another occurs more often in Diving than any other hobby to the detriment of the other!

Reliance on others happens all the time in diving, but not in team diving. It happens when following a DM in a group. It happens when doing trust-me dives with a more experienced buddy (buddy pair is not the same as a team).

Is not Team Diving:
- Insufficient gas reserves
- Trust-me dives
- Different gases and deco schedules
- Different procedures compromising safety
- Lack of communication
- Excessive unnecessary communication (OK? OK! OK? OK?! OK OK OK?!)
- Significant gear configuration differences leading to lack of familiarity/ability of a team to help with equipment issues
- Significant separation during any part of the dive (descent, bottom phase, ascent/deco)
- Reliance on other divers skills or resources to complete the dive (not self-sufficient)

Is Team Diving:
- Common goal, dive plan, gear configuration, gas strategy, deco plan, safety procedures
- Every team member is capable of doing the dive on their own, but does it in a team for added benefits
- Every team member is capable of performing all tasks that are critical for the safety of the dive, but tasks are shared/delegated for more efficiency
- Every team member is a resource for the team
- Added layer of safety against human error, catastrophic equipment failure and environment
- Having a team member that can help you resolve a fixable equipment failure to recover otherwise lost resources, making it possible to continue a dive rather than abort it unnecessarily, without compromising safety
- Not having to turn your head to see if your buddy is there
- Not having to swim after someone and pull their fin to get attention
- More fun, because you can focus on the task (or just enjoy the dive) because everyone is on the same page and working together

 

[jborg]

All the team diving in the world with proper trim staying flat proper frog anti silting kicks back kicks heli turns and the rest isn’t going to do you a damn bit of good in this area. I tried like hell back in the old days to get a DIR instructor dude guy up here to run a class and every time they refused.
At that time they were all from LA.
Now I know why.

I'm having trouble following your point. I understand there are sometimes challenging conditions where you dive. Are you saying that a team is detrimental to diving under those conditions, or that it's in fact impossible to dive as a team in flat trim etc etc there, or that team divers are too scared to enter the water there, or something else?

 

[flymolo]

Because maybe a “team” can get blown apart during such an event and suddenly they are no longer a team, they are loose components scattered around trying to figure out what the hell just happened!
In a cave, probably not going to happen, on a deep wreck probably also not likely to happen unless it’s in an area where there might be an unexpected earthquake. On the north coast of CA, yes it does happen. I know because that’s where I dive.
There was a rogue wave once that hit and the epicenter was Goat Rock beach. I had two friends that were diving that day off their boat up around Fort Ross. They had just gotten out of the water when suddenly a massive wave came through that was three times as tall as any other swell that day and almost threw both of them off the boat! Later they found out that 4 teenagers were walking on Goat Rock beach high and dry when that wave hit the shore line. All four were swept into the ocean and only two survived.
I used to freedive quite a bit for abalone and have seen plenty of freaky condition changes within hours. We left Albion Harbor once and the conditions were great. In a matter of two hours the condition worsened so bad that we almost didn’t make it back into Albion cove without getting swamped from behind by white water. Absolutely no forecasted warning it was going to happen.
All the team diving in the world with proper trim staying flat proper frog anti silting kicks back kicks heli turns and the rest isn’t going to do you a damn bit of good in this area. I tried like hell back in the old days to get a DIR instructor dude guy up here to run a class and every time they refused.
At that time they were all from LA.
Now I know why.

i can tell you didn't read my other post, but ok

 

[flymolo]

I'm having trouble following your point. I understand there are sometimes challenging conditions where you dive. Are you saying that a team is detrimental to diving under those conditions, or that it's in fact impossible to dive as a team in flat trim etc etc there, or that team divers are too scared to enter the water there, or something else?

apparently it's the only place in the world like that, which is funny because people in the NE have a habit of saying the same thing, as do people in the english channel, etc. etc.

 

[Nemrod]

 

[KenE]

Reliance on others happens all the time in diving, but not in team diving. It happens when following a DM in a group. It happens when doing trust-me dives with a more experienced buddy (buddy pair is not the same as a team).

Is not Team Diving:
- Insufficient gas reserves
- Trust-me dives
- Different gases and deco schedules
- Different procedures compromising safety
- Lack of communication
- Excessive unnecessary communication (OK? OK! OK? OK?! OK OK OK?!)
- Significant gear configuration differences leading to lack of familiarity/ability of a team to help with equipment issues
- Significant separation during any part of the dive (descent, bottom phase, ascent/deco)
- Reliance on other divers skills or resources to complete the dive (not self-sufficient)

Is Team Diving:
- Common goal, dive plan, gear configuration, gas strategy, deco plan, safety procedures
- Every team member is capable of doing the dive on their own, but does it in a team for added benefits
- Every team member is capable of performing all tasks that are critical for the safety of the dive, but tasks are shared/delegated for more efficiency
- Every team member is a resource for the team
- Added layer of safety against human error, catastrophic equipment failure and environment
- Having a team member that can help you resolve a fixable equipment failure to recover otherwise lost resources, making it possible to continue a dive rather than abort it unnecessarily, without compromising safety
- Not having to turn your head to see if your buddy is there
- Not having to swim after someone and pull their fin to get attention
- More fun, because you can focus on the task (or just enjoy the dive) because everyone is on the same page and working together

The bulk of this is no different than the buddy system taught by all the other agencies. I understand that the GUE teaching implies that they are better than all other agencies, this is just marketing and unfortunately bad divers come from all agencies. And, reliance does happen for GUE divers, I have seen it with my own eyes. A diver who could not get into and under water by him/herself without a team to help them, and they had over 100 logged dives, but only with a team. All of the items you indicate that are associated with not team diving happens with team diving as well. One would like to think is doesn't but it does, maybe not your team, but it does happen.

The second bullet under "Is Team Diving:" is contradictory to what another GUE/DIR diver said earlier, so even among yourselves you disagree on what is and is not "Team Diving"

Your last bullet really made me laugh. I would not be having fun if I was forced to use the equipment that works for some but not all. Each individual is different and a Hogarthian BP/W does not fit and not comfortable for everyone, so it would not be enjoyable.

As I said before, Team diving has a place for certain dive profiles. However, it is overkill and sometimes just not fun when used exclusively for recreational diving. Arguing that there is only one right way to dive is ridiculous.